nfitz said:
I'm pretty sure that Union Station never had water around it (outside of a big rainstorm at least!)

I can't offhand say I've ever heard of the Cambridge English Dictionary before (apparently it dates back to 1995!) ... but that sounds right. I never said they didn't have ever, or even usually, has water ... simply that it wasn't a requirement ... which is what that definition would also concur.
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There was water around the Union Station area in the 1800's until Grand Trunk started to fill in the lake to allow tracks to service the waterfront area. By the time the current Union Station was built, the waterfront was moving south to where it is today south of Front St, part of Harbour St around Bay and along the Esplanade, as well the Portland swamp/Mouth of The Don. Need to look at a map of Toronto for the 1800's to see where the waterfront edge used to be.

Google
1832
en.wikipedia.org

History of neighbourhoods in Toronto - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

1857
http://maps.library.utoronto.ca/datapub/digital/NG/historicTOmaps/1858UnwinBainmap.jpg

This one is about 1852

194092
 
EdDrass said:
Snip:

What’s odd is how these doors (between Security and the Danish pastry house] is the plan, supposedly, to turn them into retail… If I’m reading this diagram correctly:
View attachment 194093
From: https://skyrisecities.com/forum/thr...ty-of-toronto-norr.4308/page-343#post-1325070
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The Security Office looks very temporary to me so I suspect it will move to another location at some point. I think there are additional doors going into the moat area behind the small Tim Hortons and the Security Office and would expect all of them to be opened up, in due course. It seems clear that "they' want as many ways as possible to get from 'inside' the lower level of Union to/from the moat. The moat will be a major pedestrian route even when the east-west routes within the station itself are all open.
 
DSC said:
The south entrance to Union is moving on too. The ramp going from Maple Leaf Square/Bremner Blvd towards GO and VIA has been partially de-boarded and you can now see the new ramp going DOWN to the new Bay Concourse. The old ramp going up to the GO area is still there but they will, sooner or later be able to open the ramp down and then demolish the up-ramp.
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Cool.
You mean the access to Union that’s between 25 York and ScotiArena, yes?
I get that you will be able to go down to the Retail area below the VIA Concourse here, and thence east to Bay Concourse or west to Union Food Court under York, but walk me through this. If the remaining “up ramp” to GO and VIA is to be demolished how do VIA passengers access departures at the south end of the station from Bremner/Maple Leaf Sq (a.k.a. Union Plaza!) in the most direct fashion?
These diagrams don’t seem to make it clear: https://skyrisecities.com/forum/thr...ty-of-toronto-norr.4308/page-343#post-1325070
 
DSC said:
The Security Office looks very temporary to me so I suspect it will move to another location at some point. I think there are additional doors going into the moat area behind the small Tim Hortons and the Security Office and would expect all of them to be opened up, in due course. It seems clear that "they' want as many ways as possible to get from 'inside' the lower level of Union to/from the moat. The moat will be a major pedestrian route even when the east-west routes within the station itself are all open.
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There are currently about four sets of double doors open to the moat between Amano and the Timmy’s kiosk plus three or four more open between Security and Danish.
The diagrams I linked to are most recent I know of, but take a closer look — they appear the opposite of “opened up” - instead much retail seems to be inserted between the Front St Promenade and the moat (a.k.a, the TD Carriageway).
 
EdDrass said:
Cool.
You mean the access to Union that’s between 25 York and ScotiArena, yes?
I get that you will be able to go down to the Retail area below the VIA Concourse here, and thence east to Bay Concourse or west to Union Food Court under York, but walk me through this. If the remaining “up ramp” to GO and VIA is to be demolished how do VIA passengers access departures at the south end of the station from Bremner/Maple Leaf Sq (a.k.a. Union Plaza!) in the most direct fashion?
These diagrams don’t seem to make it clear: https://skyrisecities.com/forum/thr...ty-of-toronto-norr.4308/page-343#post-1325070
Click to expand...
There was discussion of this on this thread a while ago but YES, I am talking about the entrance to Union near the SBA.

AFAIK the up ramp there now will be demolished and to get to any part of Union for VIA, GO or TTC you will HAVE to go down (about half- a level by the look of it) by the new ramp (half of which is there now, half will be made as soon as the up ramp is demolished). A while ago. someone published photos (looking south from the Bay Concourse) of the new ramp being constructed below the remaining up-side so it looks as though the demolition and fitting-up of the 'other half' should be quite speedy.
 
nfitz said:
It can also be called a moat. Historically moats (or motes) were always dry.
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I hope we all agree - at least - that it is a cool word. And not to further muddy the waters (never!), it seems there has probably been far more etymological disputes on this file, going all the way back to the damnable Normans:

moat (n.)
c. 1300, mote - "a mound, a hill" (a sense now obsolete); late 14c., "ditch or deep trench dug round the rampart of a castle or other fortified place," from Old French mote "mound, hillock, embankment; castle built on a hill" (12c.; Modern French motte) and directly from Medieval Latin mota "mound, fortified height," a word of unknown origin, perhaps from Gaulish mutt, mutta.

The sense shifted in Norman French from the castle mound to the ditch dug around it. For a similar evolution, compare ditch (n.) and dike. As a verb, "to surround with a moat," early 15c. Related: Moated. etymonline

— and now that I’ve had the last say, admins can safely moot this debate... -ed.
 
I wish we had some art work in this moat. Similar to what Paddington Station in London did with clouds and stuff. Toronto needs to think beyond whats economical to create things which are more visionary. The Moat is pretty economical but it lacks the wow factor that places like Paddington will have.

194097
 
Mercenary said:
I wish we had some art work in this moat. Similar to what Paddington Station in London did with clouds and stuff. Toronto needs to think beyond whats economical to create things which are more visionary. The Moat is pretty economical but it lacks the wow factor that places like Paddington will have.
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I think the enclosure is sized to avoid interfering with the view of the station facade. The moat is rightly not the place to do it in this instance - the trainshed on the other hand, but we've been through that *many* times.

If there is a "problem", it is the miserable entrance to the subway station concourse. Thoroughly inadequate and pathetic.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
I think the enclosure is sized to avoid interfering with the view of the station facade. The moat is rightly not the place to do it in this instance - the trainshed on the other hand, but we've been through that *many* times.

If there is a "problem", it is the miserable entrance to the subway station concourse. Thoroughly inadequate and pathetic.

AoD
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and still a work in progress .....

Also, there WILL be artwork in the 'tunnel' section linking the east and west (covered) moats.
 
DSC said:
There was discussion of this on this thread a while ago but YES, I am talking about the entrance to Union near the SBA.
Snip... A while ago. someone published photos (looking south from the Bay Concourse) of the new ramp being constructed below the remaining up-side so it looks as though the demolition a
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I’d like to find that part of the thread- I cannot envision where someone exiting the south end the VIA Concourse would be forced downstairs in order to continue out of the station. Where would the access down to the retail area be located? Maybe someone can indicate on one of the diagrams.

By the way I’m confused when you write Bay Concourse- aren’t you referring to the retail/market area below the VIA Concourse? Not sure what that’s supposed to be called but it’s west of what I would call the Bay Concourse.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
I don't think the street level entrances to the TTC Union Subway Station are going to see further improvements.

AoD
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Yes, agreed but when the escalators etc from the east Great Hall ( actually from the Upper level of Bay Concourse) to the Bay Concourse open up one will be able to get to TTC from the (east) front doors of Union Station. The street staircases are not good!
 
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