I am not up to speed on long term plans, or short term even but it is worth noting that after you dig down 20 - 25' it's solid rock all the way. I'm all for it though, dig.

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Rock is better than loose wet shale/dirt due to a low water table. That is what I am lead to believe at least.
 
Nothing better that the rock that is there for foundation but it's expensive and time consuming to move and it would still be reinforced concrete for the rail tunnels. I am all for it but I am also sure it would cost big bucks.
 
I am not up to speed on long term plans, or short term even but it is worth noting that after you dig down 20 - 25' it's solid rock all the way. I'm all for it though, dig.

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Just think of how much of a 'valley' in the skyline that is going to be when Southcore, the Oxford project, and the condos directly to the east of the ACC are finished. It's going to look like the hole in the middle of a skyscraper donut from that angle. A panoramic view from the top of the new train shed roof would be pretty amazing.
 
I wonder what will happen with the bus depot if it moves underground !
 
There has to be a utilitarian angle to this though, too. It's one thing to see your log cabin as historically valuable, but what if it was at King n Bay?

Union Station is arguably one of the most important facilities in this city and its purpose should be first and foremost to serve its riders, not necessarily to preserve (quite esoteric) railway history.

At King and Bay we have a 3 storey BMO pavillion and a one storey TD pavillion. Nearby there is a grass lot with metal cows in it.

I agree that the focus of union would be on capacity, but most arguments are about the aesthetics of the shed which isn't a utilitarian angle. The clean up of the shed and creation of the atrium provides no capacity increase and extending the atrium over the whole area covered by the shed provides no capacity increase. Once the area is electrified the tracks could be placed anywhere under the shed except in 5 thin lines where the iron supports sit, the supports for the atrium occupy more space than the shed supports. Capacity is only increased by moving tracks if we accept that dedicated boarding and alighting platforms are less efficient than either a single platform supporting the boarding and alighting of two tracks, or that the removal of a track can add efficiency. Without coming to that conclusion the argument for shed removal is simply "I don't like the look of it" which is not a reason to throw away something historically significant.
 
I don't find log cabins all that impressive architecturally but if it was the last log cabin in downtown Toronto I would think it worth preserving. Are only monumental things worthy of being "heritage"?
Depends on if that log cabin is used by 200,000 people every day.
 
Depends on if that log cabin is used by 200,000 people every day.

The log cabin, in this case, is still capable of being used by 200,000 people every day.

The arguments for taking down the shed sound similar to those for taking down Old City Hall when the Eaton Center was initially proposed; ugly, dirty, dark, outdated, and doesn't serve a modern purpose; which leads me to believe that in 30 years the next generation will be praising us for keeping it. So, good job government (long-term vision and all that).


There are still many opportunities to demolish the old train shed ahead. Union Station is bound to have another major rebuild over the next 100 years.
 
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The log cabin, in this case, is still capable of being used by 200,000 people every day.

The arguments for taking down the shed sound similar to those for taking down Old City Hall when the Eaton Center was initially proposed; ugly, dirty, dark, outdated, and doesn't serve a modern purpose; which leads me to believe that in 30 years the next generation will be praising us for keeping it. So, good job government (long-term vision and all that).


There are still many opportunities to demolish the old train shed ahead. Union Station is bound to have another major rebuild over the next 100 years.

Well, subjective aesthetics aside, the major difference is that Old City Hall's functionality is essentially unchanged. It was built as an office building in 1900 and it can be used as an office building in 2013.

The Bush Shed of Union station was built for long distance, intercity, steam-powered trains for a city of 500,000. It is not designed to serve as the regional transport hub for a city region of 8 million people in the year 2013 where the goal should be to have electrified trains entering and leaving every 90 seconds. This is not a case of installing air conditioners and LAN cabling in a Victorian commercial block. This is a case of an edifice that is completely inappropriate for serving modern needs.
 
I am aware of what constitute the law. I am also fairly confident that the decision makers aren't necessarily daily user of the station AND I am also fairly confident that most current users of the station will consider the current state of affairs less than desirable. Given the potential increase in traffic beyond what even the current round of revitalization is designed to handle, it is prudent to think beyond what Parks Canada consider appropriate or otherwise given their limited mandate. The rest of the battle can be fought in the political arena, if necessary.
Heritage protection doesn't work that way. You don't have the right to appeal the rulings of pesky historical preservation experts to the court of public opinion, on the basis that a poll of 10,000 people getting off a GO train every morning should outweigh 2 academics in tweed blazers hired by an Ottawa bureaucrat.

Guess what, listing buildings has consequences, and one of those is that discretion over changes gets taken out of the hands of the ownership and into the hands of third parties whose whole reason for being there is *not* to bend to the popular will of the moment but instead objectively try to ensure an appropriate level of historical integrity is preserved for future generations. Don't want to be bound like that? Don't list the building.

In terms of "fighting the battle in the political arena" -- well, we can either ask the federal government to de-list the building (from, incidentally, the highest level of protection you can put on any structure in the country) and then let the ownership go nuts with it, or we can live with the greatest #firstworldproblem of them all, #noCalatravatrainshed.

I have to question how much Parks Canada values the Bush trainshed, seeing that they approved the demolition of 1/4 of it.
My thoughts exactly. The station itself is gorgeous and should be retained at almost all costs, but the train shed? Meh.

Was the train shed specifically given a heritage designation, or was it just lumped into the "Union Station" heritage designation?
The train shed is identical from one section to the next. If Toronto was a walled city it would be like punching a new opening through it. You don't need the whole thing to understand it.

The national historic site citation that I linked-to earlier includes the following on the "character-defining elements" list:
- the industrial character of the large, attached Bush train sheds, including: the arched trusses spanning columns between the tracks; the cascade of end façades; and the pattern of smoke ducts;

On all listed structures that are up for renos, there's always give and take with the history police... think of it as a bit like brokering a variance with City Planning. For the preservationists, the alternative of banning anyone from so much as touching a structure could mean the owner lets the whole thing rot away. 3/4 of a loaf is better than nothing.

I vaguely recall from a presentation I saw a few years ago that in the case of Union there was a negotiated deal struck with Parks Canada that I guess satisfied them as sticking to the spirit of the above citation: a chunk could come come out of the middle and most of the old wood top layer could be replaced with steel, but only on the condition that a section (I think it's the platforms closest the to the station building, but I could be wrong) would be restored back to exactly the way they were in the '30s.
 
Thank you to Hipster Duck for stating what I believe is a good argument against preserving the shed.

Platform 27:

Heritage protection doesn't work that way. You don't have the right to appeal the rulings of pesky historical preservation experts to the court of public opinion, on the basis that a poll of 10,000 people getting off a GO train every morning should outweigh 2 academics in tweed blazers hired by an Ottawa bureaucrat.
...
In terms of "fighting the battle in the political arena" -- well, we can either ask the federal government to de-list the building (from, incidentally, the highest level of protection you can put on any structure in the country) and then let the ownership go nuts with it.

That's exactly what I have in mind - fighting in the political arena to get the shed portion delisted. In any case though, the heritage issue is probably second to the (un)willingness to spend the amount required to really reconfigure the station.

AoD
 
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I agree of the simplicity of tearing down and building up, but my fear of Toronto is the façadism that is beginning to form. Everybody is more than willing to tear down and rebuild as a façade, but very few actually build with what's there. Take for instance the office tower and Peter and Richmond. Yes they could have torn down the brick but they've worked with it, which I respect. I feel the idea of perservind the bush shed, no matter what your opinion on it, is respectable and akin to the building practices of Europe, working with what's there.

I honestly feel once the green roof has been put in place and restoration has been applied, it will look fantastic with the modern shed hovering above. Of course, this is an opinion that is mine, not everybody's.
 
Contra:

I don't think even the most hardcore of us will promote tearing down the station building proper. We are talking about the shed here only. And if one is going to tear down the shed, one'd better not be rebuilding it as is (which is in many ways what we are doing here).

As to practices akin to Europe - actually they are definitely at the forefront of replacing outmoded trainsheds (if not the stations themselves). There are of course many exceptions, e.g. St. Pancras and King's Cross in London - but are we really trying to compare that with the Bush shed? And what of the issue of growing ridership? Are we willing to compromise the efficiency of this station and ridership experience just so that we can save a utilitarian shed?

AoD
 
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I think the Bush shed should be restored and preserved ELSEWHERE. Reassembled in smaller pieces it would make a perfect cover for the Bloor GO station, the Weston GO station and others.

Where it sits now prevents Union track reconfiguration and thus the current project will do nothing to increase the station's capacity.
 
The shed is not the biggest constraint on reconfiguring the tracks - the columns supporting the tracks are. Those are in the process of being rebuilt just where they are in order to lower the floor, and at great expense and effort. These decisions were made and, with the work as far along as it is, are not going to be reversed. The likelihood of another rebuilding of the station before 2050 is remote. The shed, if not beautiful, will be earnestly handsome once it's renovated. It's industrial heritage - learn to love it cause it's not going away.
 
The shed is not the biggest constraint on reconfiguring the tracks - the columns supporting the tracks are. Those are in the process of being rebuilt just where they are in order to lower the floor, and at great expense and effort. These decisions were made and, with the work as far along as it is, are not going to be reversed. The likelihood of another rebuilding of the station before 2050 is remote. The shed, if not beautiful, will be earnestly handsome once it's renovated. It's industrial heritage - learn to love it cause it's not going away.

2050 could be about right. I'm sure there are plenty of egos wed to the current plan. They will have to die off first.
 

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