Where exactly?
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Where exactly?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The public meeting boards suggest it's going roughly between Wedgewood and Patricia. This pretty much guarantees that Drewry and Cummer buses will continue to run to Finch station when they could place the station at the intersection and let ~8k riders a day off the bus when they pass it (a full terminal isn't even needed) instead of having them turn onto Yonge, turn into the Finch terminal, and force them to walk down the long tunnel to the subway. They seem to want to place Drewry/Cummer a block or two north for two reasons, 1) placing it right at Cummer, 600m away, would be "too close" to Finch (but being about 750m would be just right?), and 2) doltish planners think it should go a block north because that's where the 500m walking radii circles say it should go (despite the fact that those 500m circles are not at all indicative of real walking times or distances).
smuncky
Senior Member
i don't think you can take those drawings seriously yet. during what i got from the last 20 min of the last presentation is that they don't really have set location for any of the stations. however, i think you raise good points about cummer which you should definitely ask during the next public consultation meeting.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Yeah Scarberian stick it to 'em!
If it is true, that's certainly disturbing that the city/transit planners lack the common sense to build subway on the thoroughfares that have the station names and carry the necessary riders....hopefully they'll wise up.....
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
The logic for moving Cummer just a bit north was that a station whose northernmost point was Cummer would be too close to Finch - and I concur. The busses will still let people off there and there's no reason they can't do a loop towards the station. Anyway, the location on the boards is academic anyway: Toronto will have the final say on its location. What you saw was York Region's recommendation based on public consultation.
They said 28 bus bays. York Region expects 140 busses an hour to come through the intersection. Doesn't seem overbuilt to me. Interestingly, the public favoured a station in the ROW underground (kinda like St Clair W) as opposed to a station within a building (kinda like York Mills).
RH Centre is earmarked as one of the biggest intermodal locations in the entire GTAH and a key to the future 407 Transitway. It is also one of the 4 York Region Places to Grow nodes. There will be 28 bays. So, again....overbuilt? Heck, there must be 10 bays there now.
What heritage concerns? I think you're jumping to conclusions here but I didn't hear any major complains from even the more strident heritage folk.
None of the station names have been determined but "Bunker" is now (sensibly) called Longbridge/Langstaff. We're in agreement on how much sense this station makes and it's the biggest leap because it requires the most imagination about what is going to happen in the coming years.
DENTROBATE54
Banned
I don't see why the stop locations couldn't have been: Cummer, Steeles, Clark, Centre-John, Bay Thorn-Helen and Langstaff (RHC) which would serve both sides of the 407? Bunker-Longbridge is yet another glaring example of planning for future condo-dwellers while totally ignoring existing populations.
Centre-John, if 2 Milliken is rerouted, could become a major terminal for east-west passengers from Woodbridge, Concord, German Mills, the 400 Industrial area and Milliken. It's just the short-sightedness of planners that's preventing this.
Centre-John, if 2 Milliken is rerouted, could become a major terminal for east-west passengers from Woodbridge, Concord, German Mills, the 400 Industrial area and Milliken. It's just the short-sightedness of planners that's preventing this.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Sorry, but that's a dumb reason to move Cummer a block north...who'd suggest putting the north end at Cummer, anyway? And buses can do a loop? Loops mean left turns and they mean going *north,* backtracking. "Public consultation" probably meant one transit geek proclaiming the line must stay faithful to some ridiculous stop spacing rule. The station should go between Cummer and Wedgewood...this is painfully obvious.
Yes, 28 bus bays would be extremely overbuilt. Steeles East and Steeles West will be the bulk of those buses and 4 bays is enough for each of them, and there aren't going to be 20 different YRT routes (highly unlikely any YRT route will need more than one bay). 28 bays at RHC would also be comically overbuilt (though Viva buses might need double-long bays).
The entire area around Centre & Yonge is a heritage district...the northward march of condos will be halted there (only a few small infill buildings will be permitted on Yonge). I'd imagine even building a station wouldn't be too easy.
Langstaff can't serve both sides of the 407. The 2 shouldn't be rerouted. Centre will never be a major transfer point and the entire local population could be housed in about 3 condos near Bunker (then add thousands of parking spots and thousands more condo dwellers). Centre & Yonge will be less than a 10 minute walk away from two other stations.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
No, it was lots of people thinking it was too close to Finch and most of those people didn't think Cummer was necessary at all. But that's neither here nor there. As I already said, it's nearly meaningless since the Cummer station is something the TTC wants and its entirely their call. They're having a meeting at NY Centre in October if you want to voice objections.
I'm not a bus bay expert. Alls I know is that they are preparing for the Transitway and the idea that the RH Centre will be some kind of northern Union Station. I'd have to count the bays at RH centre now but there are surely around 10 and that's with no subway and no transitway.
Langstaff isn't supposed to serve both sides. The Viva people explictly said to think of Langstaff-RH Centre as twin stations. The former basically catering to the nearby (future) community and parking and the latter to the community and transit. Markham has concerns about it not adequately serving the future residents but we'll see.
As I'm sure everyone on this board knows the first hard step in getting people to take transit is having it by their door. I think that 10-minute walk you're suggesting would be longer for people not in the prime 18-34 demographic and be self-defeating.
Anyway, I've heard time and again on these threads the folly of planning for future communities when there are currently underserved communities. That's a fair argument. None of it changes the fact that Places to Grow is dropping 10s of thousands of people in that area and Metrolinx et al are trying to brace for it now.
You seem to be big on planning for NOW since admittedly there are problems NOW. I'm not saying nothing should be done in that regard but I can't say I have a problem with the whole "planning for the future," thing. It's kind of what planning is, isn't it?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Are you directing those last few paragraphs to me or Dentrobate? I'm the one who agrees with no station at Centre and a station at Bunker because there aren't many people at Centre now and won't be many in the future, but there will be plenty of riders at Bunker in the future. Everyone near Centre will be less than 10 minutes walk away from either Royal Orchard or Clark station...most will be about 5 minutes away. They can run a bus along Centre and down Yonge to Clark or Steeles, anyway (they probably will). We can save about $100M by not building a station at Centre...that would provide great feeder bus service along Centre for generations. And, yes, I know that Langstaff isn't supposed to serve both sides of the 407 - I was saying this to Dentrobate.
edit - And about RHC bus terminal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Hill_Centre_(YRT)), 9/10 of its bus bays are currently used but the removal of Viva Blue due to the subway extension will free up two more bays. There's just no way 20 new bays will be needed...I don't think even Finch station has that many, even combining TTC and YRT bays (and serving 200 buses an hour). STC doesn't have 28 bays and it serves almost 20 routes.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Fair enough - Centre may be the weakest station but I still think there's enough to justify it. I don't think people will be keen to walk to Royal Orchard because of the valley (even when there's a bridge there). People south of Centre may be willing to walk to Clark, I agree.
The Q at the public meetings was how to serve the heritage district. We could do NO stations or Centre or R Orchard or both. People wanted both. Whether both are needed...I don't know for certain.
According to the Wiki, there are 15 YRT/GO bus bays at Finch and (I think) 11 TTC bays. In that context, yeah, 28 seems like a few too many, especially at Steeles. The Transitway alters things at RH Centre though I concede nearly 30 still seems like a lot around 20 doesn't seem so crazy.
We're still in the planning stages and I'm sure some of these things will get whittled down. It's worth bearing in mind that 18 months ago no one really dreamed of the subway coming north within the decade and now we're starting a shortened EA already. Overall, I think the work that's been done in so short a time is impressive.
The Q at the public meetings was how to serve the heritage district. We could do NO stations or Centre or R Orchard or both. People wanted both. Whether both are needed...I don't know for certain.
According to the Wiki, there are 15 YRT/GO bus bays at Finch and (I think) 11 TTC bays. In that context, yeah, 28 seems like a few too many, especially at Steeles. The Transitway alters things at RH Centre though I concede nearly 30 still seems like a lot around 20 doesn't seem so crazy.
We're still in the planning stages and I'm sure some of these things will get whittled down. It's worth bearing in mind that 18 months ago no one really dreamed of the subway coming north within the decade and now we're starting a shortened EA already. Overall, I think the work that's been done in so short a time is impressive.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
It's all but certain that a bus route of some kind will run along Centre and down Yonge...people can take this to get to the subway and we can save a full hundred million dollars. There's only a couple hundred people living at Yonge & Centre; the group of people we're talking about who will have anything more than a minute or two walk to Clark, Royal Orchard or to a bus that goes to the subway only numbers in the dozens.
The Transitway will not need more than 4 bays (anecdotally, one bay seems to handle up to around 10K daily riders well). If 15 bays are more than enough to accommodate potential new routes, there's no point in spending extra millions on superfluous bays that will never be used. The Yonge extension process is moving along nicely, yes, but that's no excuse for neglecting to not waste money (transit lines are probably the one thing governments can't afford to waste money on...drivers get upset, taxpayers get upset, other municipalities/neighbourhoods get upset that limited funds didn't come their way, future projects are put on hold because past projects were "too expensive," etc.).
The Transitway will not need more than 4 bays (anecdotally, one bay seems to handle up to around 10K daily riders well). If 15 bays are more than enough to accommodate potential new routes, there's no point in spending extra millions on superfluous bays that will never be used. The Yonge extension process is moving along nicely, yes, but that's no excuse for neglecting to not waste money (transit lines are probably the one thing governments can't afford to waste money on...drivers get upset, taxpayers get upset, other municipalities/neighbourhoods get upset that limited funds didn't come their way, future projects are put on hold because past projects were "too expensive," etc.).
smuncky
Senior Member
i've mentioned earlier that the 77 could easily be the route that drops people off at clark and loops back to promenade via clark instead of continuing south to steeles. there is no reason for a station at centre just as there's no reason for one at uploads, elgin, doncaster, etc. same with the 2 miliken bus. it could easily be rerouted to go to clark station and loop around doncaster if need be.
btw scarberian, i was actually under the impression that the viva bus routes would continue south to steeles. however, i'm not sure if it was mentioned somewhere in the online material or if it was from the online webcast but i remember being quite confused as to why they would run the viva instead of just sticking to the 99 south of RHC.
i also agree that they are overbuilding on the bus bay issue. however, it doesn't suprise me, especially when i see that pedestrain bridge.
btw scarberian, i was actually under the impression that the viva bus routes would continue south to steeles. however, i'm not sure if it was mentioned somewhere in the online material or if it was from the online webcast but i remember being quite confused as to why they would run the viva instead of just sticking to the 99 south of RHC.
i also agree that they are overbuilding on the bus bay issue. however, it doesn't suprise me, especially when i see that pedestrain bridge.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
I doubt they've given much thought to where all the YRT routes will run post-subway...it's funny how the fate of billions of dollars of rapid transit routes can be tossed around (subway! busway! LRT! or nothing at all!) but local/feeder bus routes are all but ignored.
Running Viva buses south of Hwy 7 makes no sense. Even the 99 will have trouble sticking around given the ~1km stop spacing (the TTC's 97 Yonge bus will see its ridership north of Finch station slashed down to almost nothing).
Running Viva buses south of Hwy 7 makes no sense. Even the 99 will have trouble sticking around given the ~1km stop spacing (the TTC's 97 Yonge bus will see its ridership north of Finch station slashed down to almost nothing).
smuncky
Senior Member
DENTROBATE54
Banned
Weren't these the very same types of arguments they used to rationalize the Sheppard Line? Where does the bulk of Sheppard patronage come from again... yup, bus feeders NOT the dozens of recently built condos that cluster the Yonge to Don Mills strip. It's like we're allowing history to repeat itself, at the expense of detouring long-distance commuter buses to out-of-way stations.
I'm not saying these new communities don't deserve public transit, but to skip a concession road in favour of a few hundred townhouses on-site of a minor side street makes no sense. It's backwards logic. People from John or Centre Streets should be subjected to 10 minute walks but Bunkerites get a subway at their doorstep?
And about Langstaff-RHC station, if the platform is 150m in length it is quite possible for the south end to have exits onto the southside of the highway system, with York Mills/Wilson style passageway between the north end of the platform and the bus terminal. All of this would be central to the GO station.
Anyhow, this will probably explain my proposal better than I can articulate:
So contrary to the assumptions being made in this thread; if fed directly by routes 2 Miliken, 3 Thornhill-York U and 77 Centre-Hwy 7; Centre-John Stn would be the third highest trafficked station of the extension after Steeles and RHC, the latter of which will also be reliant primarily on feeder buses, no matter how many condos, townhouses, et. all are built into the Yonge/407 vicinity in the coming years.