doady
Senior Member
Subway should only be extended to Steeles. LRT should be built from Steeles to Richmond Hill Centre. North of Richmond Hill Centre it should be BRT because the ridersihp cannot support LRT.
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
As I said above, that's riddiculous.
Since we KNOW that most of those people are going to/from the subway, why on earth would you pay all that money to extend the subway 1/2-way to its natural terminus (yeah, I get there's a border there) and then introduce TWO more forms of transit in the next 5 km? Too many transfers=too many reasons not to take transit. It's totally antithetical to the logic for building any of these lines in the first place.
Why would you plan east-west rapid transit (BRT) on Highway 7 AND 407 and then not have a direct link to the subway? What kind of planning is that?
What makes sense is subway to Hwy 7 and BRT to the north with a major transit node (like, the one already in the province's plans) at Yonge/7. Anything else is self-defeating.
Which is exactly why it should be replaced by something like New York's METRO Transit Authority, San Francisco's BAY AREA Rapid Transit etc.
By your logic the TTC is designed entirely for Toronto residents, within Toronto. Toronto residents who work outside 416 are presumably as outside-the-system as 905ers who work in Toronto, I presume?
My point is this: Pretend, for the sake of argument, there are no separate municipal systems or borders. Just one, GTA-wide transit system with one funding mechanism. If you then look at the map it's beyond obvious why the subway should go up to Hwy. 7. The ONLY argument for stopping it at Steeles is parochial.
I understand that's not 2012 tax-paying reality but the GTA is integrated geographically and economically and if you are so determined to protect your fiefdom that you undercut the big picture, what's the point?
We need regional transit funding and regional transit planning for precisely this region so hopefully Metrolinx will move in that direction. Clearly Toronto residents won't be leading the charge on their own.
Last edited:
BMO
Senior Member
why are you so ignorant? People in York Region take YRT buses which are $3.50 to the TTC which is $3.00. They save a mere $1 as opposed to taking the GO ($14 round-trip from Langstaff). People choose to go to Finch because it is more convenient for their trip (maybe the go to North York Centre, etc)
CDL.TO
Moderator
Although you're not wrong, cash fare isn't a good measure of these things. Cash fares are meant to be high in order to get more revenue from the occasional rider. From Langstaff.
One trip with a GO Ten-ride: $5.22
One trip with a YRT ticket and TTC token: $2.80+$2.60 = $5.40
The big thing about York region is that unless your destination in Downtown Toronto is south of Queen, it's often faster to take YRT and the subway anyway.
Paleo
Active Member
doady knows passenger volumes drop by 50% once you cross Steeles.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
So long as there's Commuter Rail options for long range trips and the subways with short stop spacing are primarily used for short range rapid transit, and as an exit route to get to where they're going when they transfer off the Commuter Rail.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
I'd really like to see, though prohibitively expensive if not impossible, the dispersal areas of stations such as North York Centre and Sheppard. It would appear to me that subway riders in the downtown core are willing to walk a couple blocks or more to their final destination, ie the distance between each subway station to the distance between a University line station and Spadina, which is kind of the edge of the downtown core. I doubt that North York Centre, despite being a "mini downtown" or even Yonge and Eglinton have that type of dispersal ratio. I'm even willing to bet that those who ride the subway to their job are limited to those who work in buildings that are directly attached to the subway station (essentially a 2 building radius around the station site) and that from roughly 200 meters or more the modal split very quickly shifts towards vehicle vs public transit.
I realize that the PATH network is partially the reason why downtowners are willing to walk more but could it be that significant.
I realize that the PATH network is partially the reason why downtowners are willing to walk more but could it be that significant.
Last edited:
EnviroTO
Senior Member
We didn't have to cut service due to the operating costs of the subway divided by fares though, is it the surface network that drags down the budget. All TTC bus routes crossing into York are subsidized by York and by providing the surface network that delivers passengers to the subway they are in effect subsidizing those trips.
xtremesniper
Active Member
Of course ridership drops once you cross Steeles, silly. Who wants to pay a double fare? It's the #1 reason why transit ridership hasn't taken off like it could have. Arbitrary borders that penalize people for wanting to travel across regional borders.
God, the ignorance of some people on this forum is outstanding. It's the reason why I don't participate in these debates as much anymore. Too many selfish thickheaded people not using their brain when it counts.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I agree. You end up getting tied in the same circles, explaining the same things over and over again. I understand there are practical, financial realities out there but it would be nice if people looked at the system as a whole and understood why eliminating the borders (i.e. Steeles) is so crucial to creating efficient regional transit.
If there was no double fare, and if the subway came north of Steeles it would do wonders for the flow of traffic and people. But Steeles is there and there is a double fare so people continue to insist there should be a service-wall too. Breaking down those walls is a big part of why Metrolinx exists and they haven't got very far to date...
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Subway expansion beyond municipal borders and fare integration are two basically independent things. A subway beyond Steeles does not necessitate fare integration nor does fare integration make the subway expansion beyond Steeles more viable.
Absent fare integration riders will still be paying a double fare when boarding the subway, they'll just be paying the extra fare earlier, if fares are integrated I feel that the system will move to a fare by distance method a la GO
Absent fare integration riders will still be paying a double fare when boarding the subway, they'll just be paying the extra fare earlier, if fares are integrated I feel that the system will move to a fare by distance method a la GO
Markster
Senior Member
I wouldn't agree.
Without fare integration, it would cost $6 to go from Clark Ave to Finch on the subway. With fare integration, this trip becomes $3, and many more people switch to the subway.
nfitz
Superstar
Fare integration doesn't necessarily mean a single fare zone. It could well mean that Scarborough Town Centre to Pearson Airport would be more expensive than it is now.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
First, it's reasonable to assume there will be a change in the fare structure at some point. Whether it's distance-based or zones...either way, Markster's point is the key. Even if that $6 trip becomes $4.50, the double fare is a killer right now and it distorts travel patterns (ie I live at Clark but would rather drive to Finch than take the bus right outside my house.)
Anyway, the subway extension and fare thing are not mutually exclusive. The point was that stopping the subway at Steeles and the double fare are both examples of obsolete borders inhibiting transit use. (And I presume that if the subway came north with the current fare system in place it would work exactly like the Spadina plan. You pay the double fare if you transfer to YRT/Viva but it's the normal TTC fare if you just get on the subway.)
Anyway, the subway extension and fare thing are not mutually exclusive. The point was that stopping the subway at Steeles and the double fare are both examples of obsolete borders inhibiting transit use. (And I presume that if the subway came north with the current fare system in place it would work exactly like the Spadina plan. You pay the double fare if you transfer to YRT/Viva but it's the normal TTC fare if you just get on the subway.)
doady
Senior Member
If it works for Scarbrough, then it'll work for York Region as well. The transit ridership in Scarborough is much better than in York Region and it has more transfers.
Actually, it's more like a 66% drop north of Steeles. The TTC Steeles buses have an average weekday ridership of around 25,000 each, while the YRT buses also have a combined weekday ridership of around 25,000 riders. So Steeles should be the terminus for the Yonge subway.