[AlvinofDiaspar]

xtremesniper:

Actually, the flip-flopping really started when the province got seriously involved in transit funding and planning, particularly from the 70s on. By doing so,building subways isn't just about navigating Metro (well, old Toronto initially anyways) politics - but provincial politics as well.

AoD

 

[BMO]

Actually, it's more like a 66% drop north of Steeles. The TTC Steeles buses have an average weekday ridership of around 25,000 each, while the YRT buses also have a combined weekday ridership of around 25,000 riders. So Steeles should be the terminus for the Yonge subway.

And I would really question how many ppl on the 53 or 60 are actually from south of steeles... I imagine a large chunk are from north of steeles(and actually live closer to a YRT stop, but walk further to TTC to avoid double fare) So the numbers for buses coming into Finch from the north are skewed, and not a true indication of ridership past steeles. Not to mention many ppl within the area between Finch and Highway 7 just drive to Finch to avoid a double fare as well.

 

[xtremesniper]

xtremesniper:

Actually, the flip-flopping really started when the province got seriously involved in transit funding and planning, particularly from the 70s on. By doing so,building subways isn't just about navigating Metro (well, old Toronto initially anyways) politics - but provincial politics as well.

AoD

I recognize that politics always has it's play when it comes to transit, but somehow Europe figured it out and executed on it properly. And not just Europe, but Asia as well, and many third-world countries have much more accessible and elaborate subway systems than we do here. I know it's possible to do while still dealing with politics, but somehow North America has not figured out how.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

In addition to that, just a few weeks ago Ford (or one of his cronies) mentioned that because of the LRT vote, it would put Presto's implementation in peril. I have no idea how he would justify how those two things would affect one another, but it was on the news.

There is a logic. Toronto's gas tax funding is contingent on them signing onto Presto, it's the "stick" the province has been holding in its backpocket. The document in which the TTC finally agreed to adopt presto (and thus, get the gas tax) was the MOU Ford signed with the province for the Eglinton LRT.

As we now know, it's both non-binding and obsolete so while the Presto process has continued to roll on, Toronto council will likely have to officially re-affirm that commitment at some point.

You're right on about the province just taking over the TTC (at least subway and LRT) however. It's time for Metrolinx to step up. It doesn't sound like TTC management is about to get more stable and forward thinking...

(And to rbt, Presto is obviously not a pre-requisite for fare integration but it (obviously, no?) makes it far easier. Once you have Metrolinx handling the fare media for every system in the GTA it's easier for them to negotiate (or impose) a uniform fare structure and for people to move between systems.)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I would be very, very careful in transferring European and Asian lessons to North America - the politics, demographics and economics are so different in many ways.

AoD

 

[rbt]

Good to know, I didn't know that, but it was no more than a few months ago where the TTC was still flip-flopping on whether it would implement its own system or start seriously considering Presto.

No, they are, committed to Presto provided the Presto team can meet the timelines they've committed to.

In addition to that, just a few weeks ago Ford (or one of his cronies) mentioned that because of the LRT vote

His MOU was never official and at no point did it impact the TTC other than to delay some works in progress. It was never ratified. Ford plays fast and loose with facts.

 

[xtremesniper]

There is a logic. Toronto's gas tax funding is contingent on them signing onto Presto, it's the "stick" the province has been holding in its backpocket. The document in which the TTC finally agreed to adopt presto (and thus, get the gas tax) was the MOU Ford signed with the province for the Eglinton LRT.

As we now know, it's both non-binding and obsolete so while the Presto process has continued to roll on, Toronto council will likely have to officially re-affirm that commitment at some point.

You're right on about the province just taking over the TTC (at least subway and LRT) however. It's time for Metrolinx to step up. It doesn't sound like TTC management is about to get more stable and forward thinking...

Thanks for the clarification about Presto. But yes, the TTC is showing no sign of smartening up, and with the recent firing of Gary Webster (in contempt, mind you) there's no hope for the near future.

I would be very, very careful in transferring European and Asian lessons to North America - the politics, demographics and economics are so different in many ways.

AoD

I get that, but regardless, I think the mindset of the general public here is far too car oriented because of the car era that is (hopefully) on its slow way out. If more people made a fuss about transit, we would get transit.

 

[rbt]

You're right on about the province just taking over the TTC (at least subway and LRT) however. It's time for Metrolinx to step up. It doesn't sound like TTC management is about to get more stable and forward thinking...

This would be a reverse take-over in the making. Sure, it would have the Metrolinx name but it would be all the old TTC staff.

And to rbt, Presto is obviously not a pre-requisite for fare integration but it (obviously, no?) makes it far easier.

I doubt it. Fare integration is going to require additional operating funding to close the gap. Politically it is going to be a disaster regardless of the technology behind it unless the province steps up with operating funds.

You can't ask Toronto to bump their property taxes by 1% to cover the funding gap caused by York Region riders getting a reduced TTC fare. You can't raise TTC fares to cover the gap.

At some point someone needs to pay for it and today it's people crossing a municipal border. Changing the group that pays extra is going to be very very difficult politically.

I really doubt TTC fare integration will occur until we put in a region wide road toll or sales tax. Some %age of that revenue will cover the funding gap caused by fare integration.

Even fare-by-distance will be difficult to change to unless the max fare is close to the existing fare for TTC users.


I expect GO's union station capacity project will tunnel Lake Shore rather than build a DRL strictly because of the fare integration issue. I don't think McGuinty has the political clout to put tolls on the region and Ford isn't going to co-operate by requesting them. No new reliable source of operating funds == no fare integration.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I don't see the "regardless of the technology" angle. Wouldn't fare integration be harder with 10 systems each using non-transferrable media? Surely having a TTC rider and a Mississauga Transit rider using the same fare card makes it easier for to be charged in a more creative way than the current one-system-one-ride-one-fare system, no? How can you even do distance-based with tokens and tickets? At least with Presto it's feasible.

I'm not suggesting a reduced TTC fare, really. Greater minds than I will have to figure out how a zone/distance system works but surely someone taking transit from, say, Bathurst and Hwy 7 to York U should pay less for transit - regardless of whether they're taking 1 sytem or 2 - than someone travelling from Scarborough to Etobicoke, even if they're only on 1 system. (Or, more to the point, it's absurd right now that someone can travel Scarb->Etob for $3.00 while it would cost me $6+ to get from Yonge/Clark to Yonge/Sheppard...)

I think you're right the province will have to step up with funds (and lord knows, that doesn't look imminent) but some form of integration seems inevitable if Metrolinx is to have any meaningful function. As I've said before, I think their 2013 investment strategy will lead to regionwide funding for a regional system and that'll be the straw that breaks the camel's back on fare integration.

Oh, and Metrolinx already sort of had a reverse takeover with GO.
As it stands, they are going to own any new transit they build (including York's Viva system and Eglinton LRT) so I don't see why they need to absorb all of TTC if they similarly assume ownership of the subways while leaving bus and streetcar in TTC's hand. But it's hypothetical on top of hypothetical right now.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

You're right about the TTC fare zone on Spadina. YRT still hasn't done a post-subway service plan but I presume they'll have some kind of shuttle that easily gets people from Hwy 7 to York U without having to pay a second fare. Obviously the scenario you describe (paying a second fare to go that short distance to a major terminal) is riddiculous but if Presto is online they could have a different fare structure in place by 2015.

As for Yonge, Viva wouldn't need to run south of Hwy. 7 once the subway is there. I suspect it would terminate at Richmond Hill Centre and the 99 bus would continue to offer local service. But that's speculation. As you point out, this really hilights the need to get Presto up and running and get Metrolinx to devise a more sensible fare system.

I thought part of York U's involvement with the subway extension was their stated desire to get all those buses off of their property. Can't imagine they'd let a shuttle bus have access after all the trouble they went through of getting themselves a subway.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

They want the buses off the campus. There could still be a bus ending at the Steeles West station or somewhere more inside the campus without still having dozens of buses driving through the commons area. I'm just spitballing. YRT just unveiled it's 2012-15 service plan. I'm sure they're already pondering what the whole system will look like once the Spadina line is open, which is getting off-topic for this thread anyway.

 

[Palma]

I would be very, very careful in transferring European and Asian lessons to North America - the politics, demographics and economics are so different in many ways.

AoD

Look at how,many trains in Argentina have crashed, the most recent was just this week. Though I read since it was privatized - you know the usual - scheduled maintenance slowed down or non existent

 

[cityplaceguy]

Let Asian companies do it. Plain and simple, also kill off those Union blood sucking bats!

 

[nfitz]

Let Asian companies do it. Plain and simple, ...

Given how poor health & safety regulations seem to be in many Asian countries, and how many workers die every year, I wouldn't go that direction.

also kill off those Union blood sucking bats!

Yonge line is still pretty busy, even if you ignore those going all the way to Union. Though what you have against those working in the financial sector I don't know ... but I guess there's a lot of lawyers and real estate people mixed in there too ... Still though - seems a bit extreme.

 

[Tulse]

Yonge line is still pretty busy, even if you ignore those going all the way to Union. Though what you have against those working in the financial sector I don't know ... but I guess there's a lot of lawyers and real estate people mixed in there too ... Still though - seems a bit extreme.

cityplaceguy is just showing solidarity with the 99%. Occupy Union! (At least until the second platform gives us more room.)