401 traffic won't use the subway as most of the traffic originates or ends outside of the subways reach.
all the malls and hospitals along Sheppard are already served by the subway. As for the office complex, I believe that when planning the Sheppard LRT they looked at extending the subway to consumers and building the transfer there, and determined it would be better to simply stick the LRT underground at Consumers.

Sheppard has some of the worst congested intersections as it is right beside the 401, and as I said most 401 trips would not change over to the subway as most of the trip do not originate and begin at a subway stop for people who use the 401.

car traffic =/= viable subway routes. By that measure highway 7 badly needs a subway, but that also isn't right.

and as I said, possibly the most important thing for suburban subways are the bus connections, which Yonge and Scarborough have in spades that Sheppard fails to have. Other than the Sheppard bus itself (which would be replaced anyway) there are no truly busy bus routes that intersect it. There would be essentially 0 regional connections for the line (unlike Scarborough and Yonge) meaning that almost all of the ridership on the line would have to originate very close to the line, and you need much more than a couple of highrises every couple of km for it to make sense.
 
innsertnamehere said:
401 traffic won't use the subway as most of the traffic originates or ends outside of the subways reach.
all the malls and hospitals along Sheppard are already served by the subway. As for the office complex, I believe that when planning the Sheppard LRT they looked at extending the subway to consumers and building the transfer there, and determined it would be better to simply stick the LRT underground at Consumers.

Sheppard has some of the worst congested intersections as it is right beside the 401, and as I said most 401 trips would not change over to the subway as most of the trip do not originate and begin at a subway stop for people who use the 401.

car traffic =/= viable subway routes. By that measure highway 7 badly needs a subway, but that also isn't right.

and as I said, possibly the most important thing for suburban subways are the bus connections, which Yonge and Scarborough have in spades that Sheppard fails to have. Other than the Sheppard bus itself (which would be replaced anyway) there are no truly busy bus routes that intersect it. There would be essentially 0 regional connections for the line (unlike Scarborough and Yonge) meaning that almost all of the ridership on the line would have to originate very close to the line, and you need much more than a couple of highrises every couple of km for it to make sense.
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Leslie, Bayview, Vicpark, Warden, Birchmount, Kennedy bus routes. come on man.
 
they are all relatively empty at that point. when you look up the figures they all fill up closer to Bloor. This far north they have only had 4km of travel to pick up passengers, they aren't even a third of the way through their run when they pass Sheppard typically. Leslie and Bayview already have connections to the subway and Sheppard ridership figures prove my point. Vic park has 9km to go, Warden 8km, Kennedy and Birchmount 6km, etc.

And other than Warden they have very little density north of Sheppard as well. Birchmount and Kennedy is single family homes all the way to Steeles other than the Pacific mall (of which most people use the Steeles bus instead)
 
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innsertnamehere said:
and as I said, possibly the most important thing for suburban subways are the bus connections, which Yonge and Scarborough have in spades that Sheppard fails to have. Other than the Sheppard bus itself (which would be replaced anyway) there are no truly busy bus routes that intersect it. There would be essentially 0 regional connections for the line (unlike Scarborough and Yonge) meaning that almost all of the ridership on the line would have to originate very close to the line, and you need much more than a couple of highrises every couple of km for it to make sense.
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This cannot be stressed enough. Any candidate route for a suburban subway must have plenty of high readership connecting bus feeder routes.

Outside of the downtown core almost all passengers arrive at the subway by bus. This is why the Spadina (Allen Road) Subway, which is lined by low density residential, empty fields, a shopping mall, a private airport and a rail yard is so successful. It has the bus feeder routes to support a subway. Sheppard does not. All of the bus routes that would connect to an extension of the Sheppard Subway have relatively low ridership.

It should also be noted that new residential developments don't generate huge amounts of walk in transit riders. What does that is plenty new commercial/office spaces.

denfromoakvillemilton said:
Leslie, Bayview, Vicpark, Warden, Birchmount, Kennedy bus routes. come on man.
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Those bus routes have hardly any riders once they cross Sheppard. They start to fill up as they approach Eglinton and Bloor.
 
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I really don't understand this obsession people have with the Sheppard Subway. If you're looking for a way to waste $3 Billion why not focus on extending the Relief Line on Don Mills. Judging by the connecting busses, Don Mills would almost certainly have more riders than Sheppard. A subway on Don Mills is hardly a priority but at least it wouldn't be a total waste of money like Sheppard.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
I really don't understand this obsession people have with the Sheppard Subway. If you're looking for a way to waste $3 Billion why not focus on extending the Relief Line on Don Mills. Judging by the connecting busses, Don Mills would almost certainly have more riders than Sheppard. A subway on Don Mills is hardly a priority but at least it wouldn't be a total waste of money like Sheppard.
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For the DRL, it can go up from pape to Don Mills, and then turn west,and go on sheppard. Solves a lot of issues.
 
salsa said:
Those numbers are pathetic. Please compare that to other subway stations
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I thought I would count the first four stations on the B-D line and compare to Sheppard.

B-D = 75k
Sheppard = 53k.

Or, the popular ;) average daily passengers per station per year of service (ADPPSPYS)

B-D = 75k / 4 / 50 years = 375
Sheppard = 53k / 4 / 10 = 1300

Or, looked at differently, assuming Sheppard passenger volumes increase by 0.75% per year, it would be the same as the B-D line.
 
innsertnamehere said:
what do you mean first 4 stations on the BD line? Kennedy, Warden, Vic Park, and Main? or just the first 4 stations you found on the list?
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Sorry, First four stations from Yonge. (Sherbourne, Castle Frank, Broadview, Chester; VS. Bayview, Bessarion, Leslie, Don Mills).
 
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BurlOak said:
I thought I would count the first four stations on the B-D line and compare to Sheppard.

B-D = 75k
Sheppard = 53k.

Or, the popular ;) average daily passengers per station per year of service (ADPPSPYS)

B-D = 75k / 4 / 50 years = 375
Sheppard = 53k / 4 / 10 = 1300

Or, looked at differently, assuming Sheppard passenger volumes increase by 0.75% per year, it would be the same as the B-D line.
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Your analysis is laughable. I have no idea what "first 4 stations" you picked, but when I look at Kennedy to Main Street I get over 145K compared to 53K for Sheppard. No matter what kind of funny math you use, it does not change the fact that the Sheppard subway is a completely unjustified waste of money.

Edit: So you looked at east of Yonge. That's not even a fair comparison because there's no terminal station included.


denfromoakvillemilton said:
For the DRL, it can go up from pape to Don Mills, and then turn west,and go on sheppard. Solves a lot of issues.
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- No it doesn't
- That's not even physically possible
- What issues are you talking about?
- Absurd ideas belong in the fantasy thread
 
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exactly. first one is so close to Bloor Yonge many probably just walk there to get on the YUS. second largely only serves residential rosedale, and is rather inhospitable. Broadview is the only half-decently busy station. Chester is the emptiest station east of Yonge, yet still triples Bessarian numbers.


a better comparision is overall averages for both lines. B-D, including interchanges, averages 33,500 passengers per station. Sheppard averages 20,000. without terminals (after all, extending sheppard will still have a terminal, we have to look at the added ridership from the new non-terminal stations), Bloor averages 25,100, and Sheppard averages 5,600. looking at Sheppards eventual terminal is also telling. The STC RT stop, effectively acting as the terminal station for the RT, has only 27,500. This number will likely jump considerably once the Scarborough extension opens (as more people will actually be able to fit on the trains and a re-calibrated bus network will now aim for STC instead of Kennedy), but even if it were to triple, and half the riders were to take Sheppard with half taking Scarborough (hint: they won't, majority will take the B-D line) Sheppards terminal stop would be 41,200, making it even lower than Don Mills currently.
 
salsa said:
Your analysis is laughable. I have no idea what "first 4 stations" you picked, but when I look at Kennedy to Main Street I get over 145K compared to 53K for Sheppard. No matter what kind of funny math you use, it does not change the fact that the Sheppard subway is a completely unjustified waste of money.

Edit: So you looked at east of Yonge. That's not even a fair comparison because there's no terminal station included.




- No it doesn't
- That's not even physically possible
- What issues are you talking about?
- Absurd ideas belong in the fantasy thread
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With sheppard being a stub. Are we sure we can't turn the subway trains south at don mills and sheppard?
 
If I remember correctly TTC endorsed the Sheppard Subway back in the 90s. I have to wonder if these guys legitimately thought this was a successful route or if they were just playing political games. Surely the engineers at the TTC could have foreseen what a disaster this would have been.
 
they based their ridership numbers based on unrealistic job growth numbers at NYCC and STC from the planning department. They were expecting NYCC to have roughly triple the space it currently has and STC to have around ten times as much IIRC.
 
Ten times as much!? Wow. They were expecting another downtown core to pop up in Scarborough (insanity). And wasn't this during a recession as well (further insanity)? Of course I have the benefit of hindsight. :cool:
 
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