[TheTigerMaster]

Why on earth is the TTC stubbornly keep on operating the Sheppard line until 2am every night? It closes later that the Yonge line. Why not imitate Montreal's Blue line who used to close at 11h15am when the ridership was low and run the trains every 10 minutes?

The TTC actually wanted to close Sheppard on weekends to lower operating losses. As for it being open than Yonge, I have no clue why that is. Regardless, the line has abysmal ridership. Operational times are irrelevant for this discussion.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think Sheppard West has merits because of:

A-Even if you wanted to build an LRT, Sheppard Avenue West is way too narrow from Yonge st. to at least Bathurst street. It would have to be underground
B-By connecting the line to the Spadina line you could
1)Use the Wilson Yard more efficiently
2)Create a Sheppard Branch which would most likely boost the line's ridership as it is done in many cities around the world

I think Sheppard East has merits to at least Victoria Park. Agincourt makes sense as a terminal station with the GO train and reevalutae beyond that point.

1. I don't know why the TTC would want to spend billions of dollars and add millions to annual operation costs to connect to Wilson Yard. They store the four trains used on Sheppard at the pocket tracks at Yonge and Don Mills Stations without problem. And bringing them down to Davisville Yard for maintenance shouldn't be too much of an issue.

2. I don't think the TTC would want a Sheppard branch. That would mean upgrading Sheppard to six car trainsets and likely increased train frequency. Therefore higher maintenance and operational costs.

 

[salsa]

The Vaughan extension north of Finch was idiotic. Like Sheppard, it should have never been built.

What's wrong with York university station? I think Steeles would have been a good place to terminate the extension. Steeles is low density but it could have had a large regional bus terminal for GO and YRT, just like Finch station. As for the last 2 stations, I don't agree with it but York region funded it themselves, so let them have it. It seems like much of the outrage is caused just because the subway crosses the border, regardless of whether ridership will be good or not.

 

[WislaHD]

You can't simply turn a train 90 degrees to go south. It takes hundreds of metres of curvy tunnels under a bunch of high rise buildings to do that. Plus you would have to retrofit the existing sheppard subway stations to accommodate 6-car trains. It also doesn't help that the Don Mills platform is located on the east side of Don Mills road, and that the planned sheppard LRT is supposed to share the subway platform as well. It's simply not worth spending tons of money on this, even if it's somehow possible.

Hmm and how about extending Sheppard subway to Victoria Park before turning it south and southwest towards Lawrence and Don Mills? Make Victoria Park the interchange between Sheppard LRT and Sheppard-Don Mills Subway.

 

[Adjei]

What's wrong with York university station? I think Steeles would have been a good place to terminate the extension. Steeles is low density but it could have had a large regional bus terminal for GO and YRT, just like Finch station. As for the last 2 stations, I don't agree with it but York region funded it themselves, so let them have it. It seems like much of the outrage is caused just because the subway crosses the border, regardless of whether ridership will be good or not.

I don't get all this outrage about it. Most of the subway is in Toronto with the majority of the stations. So because it crosses 2 or so kilometres into Vaughan people are talking as if the entire subway is in Vaughan. York Region paid for their portion. Is not like they didn't contribute anything. What would have stopping the subway at Steels have accomplished?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't get all this outrage about it. Most of the subway is in Toronto with the majority of the stations. So because it crosses 2 or so kilometres into Vaughan people are talking as if the entire subway is in Vaughan. York Region paid for their portion. Is not like they didn't contribute anything. What would have stopping the subway at Steels have accomplished?

Only if that were true. Toronto is paying the operational costs north of Steeles. YR pays zero. They're getting a free ride. Furthermore, the TTC isn't allowed to charge extra fare north of Steeles. Toronto got totally screwed by this deal.

What's wrong with York university station?

My bad.

This extension is actually very important. It services York University and acts as a somewhat significant relief for Finch (Yonge) station. I'm not so happy about north of Steeles because the ridership there doesn't justify a subway.

 

[Solid Snake]

The TTC actually wanted to close Sheppard on weekends to lower operating losses. As for it being open than Yonge, I have no clue why that is. Regardless, the line has abysmal ridership. Operational times are irrelevant for this discussion.

1-It's not irrelevant. The Montreal approach was sound. They knew the blue line would never match the Orange or the green line ridership so their service level was incremental over the years. It started with a service every 10 minutes from 6h30am to 11h15pm with 3 cars trainsets. Then, they increased it to 6 car trainsets at peak hours. After that, they closed the line at 12h15am. Finally, it's every 5 minutes at peak hours. They adjusted as the line's ridership increased which saved them operationnal costs. TTC was/is wrong to run the Sheppard line like it has a 15 000 pph while it doesn't. It's just poor management.

2-The line having an abysmal ridership is an exaggeration. It's low for the area it serves and the fact that it's incomplete...but still, a short, incomplete line not going downtown has an average ridership of 50 000 on a weekday. When compared to Chicago's line, this proves that it's far from being abysmal.

Chicago Purple Line

Weekdays 4:30 a.m. to 1:45 a.m., Saturdays 5:05 a.m. to 2:15 a.m., and Sundays 6:05 a.m. to 1:45 a.m.
During weekday rush hours (approximately 5:20 a.m. to 10:15 a.m. and 2:30 p.m. to 7:10 p.m.), the Purple Line extends another 10.3 miles (16.6 km)

Daily ridership:45,036


Chicago Pink Line

Daily ridership:33,737

And yet, Chicago seems in no hurry to throw out those lines. Yes the Sheppard subway compare to the Bloor-Danforth and the YUS line, it's ridership is very small but compared to other lines, it's very respectable.

I'll even throw Chicago's Orange line who links Midway's Airport to the Downtown loop. Its ridership is greater than Sheppard but surprisingly, not by that much.

Chicago Orange Line

Daily ridership:63,037

 

[Solid Snake]

1. I don't know why the TTC would want to spend billions of dollars and add millions to annual operation costs to connect to Wilson Yard. They store the four trains used on Sheppard at the pocket tracks at Yonge and Don Mills Stations without problem. And bringing them down to Davisville Yard for maintenance shouldn't be too much of an issue.

2. I don't think the TTC would want a Sheppard branch. That would mean upgrading Sheppard to six car trainsets and likely increased train frequency. Therefore higher maintenance and operational costs.

I think they were studying that option so the Wilson Yard could store the trains from the Richmond Hill extension and Yonge line and the study also said that they wouldn't need to build a new train yard if Sheppard West was there.

 

[Solid Snake]

What's wrong with York university station? I think Steeles would have been a good place to terminate the extension. Steeles is low density but it could have had a large regional bus terminal for GO and YRT, just like Finch station. As for the last 2 stations, I don't agree with it but York region funded it themselves, so let them have it. It seems like much of the outrage is caused just because the subway crosses the border, regardless of whether ridership will be good or not.

York paid a third (if I'm not wrong) of the capital cost but are paying 0$ for the operationnal cost

 

[salsa]

I think Sheppard West has merits because of:

A-Even if you wanted to build an LRT, Sheppard Avenue West is way too narrow from Yonge st. to at least Bathurst street. It would have to be underground
B-By connecting the line to the Spadina line you could
1)Use the Wilson Yard more efficiently
2)Create a Sheppard Branch which would most likely boost the line's ridership as it is done in many cities around the world

Sheppard West will only have merit when ridership justifies a subway, and that's all that matters. As an engineer who lives in the neighbourhood and takes the Sheppard bus all the time, I really don't see any need for a subway. My bus is hardly the busiest in the whole city, and there are no high density condos getting build here.

I would be very happy with an LRT, and it's biggest obstacle is that the Sheppard stubway is in the way. The road is not the widest but it can be widened to accommodate the LRT. Sheppard is lined with houses and their front lawns, which can be expropriated, and those houses are quickly becoming mid-rise condos anyway. The bridge toward Bathurst would need to be widened but after that it's alright. West of Bathurst the centre lane can go to the LRT, and all new condos are required by the city to be set back further away from the curb with several metres of grass (so that sheppard can one day be widened for whatever reason, if necessary). It's really not as hard as you think.

I think they were studying that option so the Wilson Yard could store the trains from the Richmond Hill extension and Yonge line and the study also said that they wouldn't need to build a new train yard if Sheppard West was there.

Does it ever cross your mind that it's much cheaper to build a new train yard than to extend the sheppard subway?

Hmm and how about extending Sheppard subway to Victoria Park before turning it south and southwest towards Lawrence and Don Mills? Make Victoria Park the interchange between Sheppard LRT and Sheppard-Don Mills Subway.

I don't think the sheppard subway deserves a single dime until there is a compelling business case for extending it, and that's all that needs to be said.

 

[Solid Snake]

I don't get all this outrage about it. Most of the subway is in Toronto with the majority of the stations. So because it crosses 2 or so kilometres into Vaughan people are talking as if the entire subway is in Vaughan. York Region paid for their portion. Is not like they didn't contribute anything. What would have stopping the subway at Steels have accomplished?

The problem is that the TTC is subsidized by fares and the City of Toronto. Granted they paid for their share of the project but the Toronto taxpayers will continue to pay through their taxes for the operationnal costs of the York extensions while some of them still have no access to rapid transit. Montreal did the same but the difference is that the STM in Montreal is also subsidized by the Province and all the suburbs around Montreal Islands, which didn't cause any controversies when Laval got its extension.

If the TTC was uploaded to the province or subsidized by the Province, I don't think no one would that negative.

 

[Solid Snake]

Sheppard West will only have merit when ridership justifies a subway, and that's all that matters. As an engineer who lives in the neighbourhood and takes the Sheppard bus all the time, I really don't see any need for a subway. My bus is hardly the busiest in the whole city, and there are no high density condos getting build here.

Hardly busy and yet the TTC wanted to increases it's service level in the Transit City bus plan by adding an Express branch. I use to live On Sheppard West and peak hours service was (and still is) horrible even with the 196 Express to York University. Most students who are depending on both the 84 and the 196B would strongly disagree that Sheppard West doesn't need rapid transit.

I would be very happy with an LRT, and it's biggest obstacle is that the Sheppard stubway is in the way. The road is not the widest but it can be widened to accommodate the LRT. Sheppard is lined with houses and their front lawns, which can be expropriated, and those houses are quickly becoming mid-rise condos anyway. The bridge toward Bathurst would need to be widened but after that it's alright. West of Bathurst the centre lane can go to the LRT, and all new condos are required by the city to be set back further away from the curb with several metres of grass (so that sheppard can one day be widened for whatever reason, if necessary). It's really not as hard as you think.

Well, Metrolinx already studied that option and they rejected it and I don't see any politicians willing to hurt their support by doing that either.

Does it ever cross your mind that it's much cheaper to build a new train yard than to extend the sheppard subway?

Tell that to Metrolinx who found that option compelling enough to be studied

I don't think the sheppard subway deserves a single dime until there is a compelling business case for extending it, and that's all that needs to be said.

There are other priorities like the DRL but Sheppard West is not about "if" but "when". This year, city council did put a motion to the TTC study Sheppard West extension. Sheppard East is still up in the air at this point as construction won't start before the next city and provincial election.

 

[salsa]

Hardly busy and yet the TTC wanted to increases it's service level in the Transit City bus plan by adding an Express branch. I use to live On Sheppard West and peak hours service was (and still is) horrible even with the 196 Express to York University. Most students who are depending on both the 84 and the 196B would strongly disagree that Sheppard West doesn't need rapid transit.

I never said Sheppard West doesn't need rapid transit. An LRT along all of sheppard would have been the best solution in the first place. That subway screwed everything up. Extending it will be very expensive, trains will run mostly empty, and good luck getting it over the ravine. The operating costs alone can pay for better bus service for now.

Well, Metrolinx already studied that option and they rejected it and I don't see any politicians willing to hurt their support by doing that either.

Our politicians are incapable of doing anything right these days, so I'm not surprised. Why did Metrolinx reject it?

Tell that to Metrolinx who found that option compelling enough to be studied

So what. Metrolinx studies all kinds of things. It doesn't mean they recommend it.

There are other priorities like the DRL but Sheppard West is not about "if" but "when". This year, city council did put a motion to the TTC study Sheppard West extension. Sheppard East is still up in the air at this point as construction won't start before the next city and provincial election.

When? We're talking many decades down the road, so why are we talking about it now when we have "other priorities" to take care of? I might be ok with sheppard west in the long term, but the east extension is even less justifiable (even the LRT will be overkill). Since you mention Metrolinx a lot, I'm pretty sure they rejected the east extension so I await your change of heart.

 

[GenerationW]

The bigger problem isn't the subway itself as much as the process and then also the idea that it queue-jumped the DRL and Yonge extension, both of which are more important.

I'd say it definitely queue-jumped Yonge. There's little doubt in my mind the feds had that $660 million earmarked specifically for Yonge before this summer's events forced their hand.

I don't think the sheppard subway deserves a single dime until there is a compelling business case for extending it, and that's all that needs to be said.

A compelling business case is great, but even better is a compelling political case. If revenue tools go through, I expect that some suburban councilors will try to get Sheppard back on the agenda. It may go nowhere, but a year ago who thought we'd be where we are with the B-D extension?

 

[Solid Snake]

I never said Sheppard West doesn't need rapid transit. An LRT along all of sheppard would have been the best solution in the first place. That subway screwed everything up. Extending it will be very expensive, and good luck getting it over the ravine. The operating costs alone can pay for better bus service.

Transit City LRT except Eglinton Crosstown is better but not rapid transit, there's too many stops (400m spacing) and the operation average speed will be 22-23 km/h because they want to avoid running parallele buses.

Sheppard West is too narrow from Yonge Street to Bathurst Street, meaning you would have the same problem at getting the LRT over the ravine. How would you increase the bus service? There's already an express bus and it's still terrible.

Our politicians are incapable of doing anything right these days, so I'm not surprised. Why did Metrolinx reject it?

They said it would be too expensive to convert Sheppard Subway into an LRT. The subway is here to stay.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...enefitscases/Benefits_Case-Sheppard-Finch.pdf

p.50

Summary Results
The assessment shows that Option 3, the continuous LRT line along Finch Avenue via Don Mills
Road to Meadowvale Road, performs the best in terms of transportation user benefits and costs.
The estimated benefit-cost ratio is 0.9 with a slight negative present value of $238 million over
the period 2009-2038. With a slightly lower discount rate or somewhat lower costs, Option 3
would achieve a positive benefit-cost ratio.

Options 2 and 4 have very high transportation user benefits ($1.7 billion), but carry very high
capital costs due to the need to retrofit the existing Sheppard subway for LRT (as in Option 2)
and the extension of the Sheppard subway (Option 4). This results in the lowest benefit-cost
ratio among the options of 0.5 and a negative present value of approximately $1.5 billion.

So what. Metrolinx studies all kinds of things. It doesn't mean they recommend it

P 25

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...enefitscases/Benefits_Case-Sheppard-Finch.pdf

-Operational benefit for the Yonge-University-Spadina subway line – TTC will have to stop
mid-day maintenance when they shift to ATO, and their overnight maintenance period will
not be adequate going forward if deadheading trains have to traverse the full length of the
line from Finch to Wilson Yard (near Downsview Station) via Union. The Sheppard subway
extension would allow the deadheading of trains to go in/out of service more efficiently
and provide for longer maintenance periods

-Possible cost reduction for a Yonge subway extension - the expansion of Wilson Yard
(instead of building a yard in Richmond Hill) could provide cost savings

However these potential benefits have not been quantified as the TTC’s forthcoming Rail Yards
Needs Study will examine these and other issues on the Yonge-University-Spadina subway line.
This report, however, contains valuable information to which that study can relate to and build
on.

It makes sense for the TTC to want that extension to happen at some point to optimize their operations and maintenance

When? We're talking many decades down the road, so why are we talking about it now when we have "other priorities" to take care of? I might be ok with sheppard west in the long term, but the east extension is even less justifiable (even the LRT will be overkill). Since you mention Metrolinx, they rejected the east extension so I await your change of heart.

Like I said, Sheppard East fate will most likely depend on who win the Ontario election. You "await a change of heart"? I would actually prefer a BRT over an LRT. I think the ridership is there for a subway to Consumers since the TTC studied extending the subway there but chose to build an underground LRT. I feel they could go to Victoria Park since I think the ridership starts dropping east of there. I bring up Agincourt because of the Agincourt GO station and they should move Oriole GO station so its connected to Leslie Subway station. Otherwise, I support BRT east of Victoria Park until the ridership someday increases for a higher mode of transit.

Make no mistake about it, I have nothing against LRT and I actually like them. I was never sold on the transit city model though. We're very far from the Paris T4 line or the London DRL here.

Stuff like this worries me about their design

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2008-06_display_panels_3.pdf

STAGE 1
• All east-west traffic / LRT/pedestrian stopped
• North-South traffic / pedestrians cross

STAGE 2
• All “through” traffic / LRT/pedestrians stopped
• Eastbound and westbound leftturn/ U-turn phase

STAGE 3
• Left-turn/U-turns stopped
• East-West LRT / “through” traffic /pedestrians intersection

In Paris, transit signals changes as soon as the vehicle is ready to cross or arrives at the intersection. Just Youtube any of the Paris Tram line (which means streetcars BTW). On this Transit City document, it shows that the vehicles will have to wait their turns and go through the signal cycles.

Unless Metrolinx changes that, I'm all for the BRT which could save us hundreds of millions of dollars which we could use on other projects. For over a billion dollars on Sheppard East LRT, I would have expected something similar or better than what's being done in Europe, not a St.Clair upgrade. It's just too expensive for such a design. LRV waiting at intersections for cars to complete their U-turns? very dissapointing...


Sheppard's ridership at an average of 50 000 on a weekday is way less than our other lines but on par with some of Chicago's line that are longer, have more station and goes Downtown and/or Midway Airport

Chicago Purple Line

Weekdays 4:30 a.m. to 1:45 a.m., Saturdays 5:05 a.m. to 2:15 a.m., and Sundays 6:05 a.m. to 1:45 a.m.
During weekday rush hours (approximately 5:20 a.m. to 10:15 a.m. and 2:30 p.m. to 7:10 p.m.), the Purple Line extends another 10.3 miles (16.6 km)

Daily ridership:45,036


Chicago Pink Line

Daily ridership:33,737

And yet, Chicago seems in no hurry to throw out those lines and they are planning to extend some of those lines. Montreal's blue line is almost a copy of Sheppard and Montreal will extend it east by 2020. Yes the Sheppard subway compare to the Bloor-Danforth and the YUS line, it's ridership is smaller but compared to other lines in other cities, it's very respectable.

I'll even throw Chicago's Orange line who links Midway's Airport to the Downtown loop. Its ridership is greater than Sheppard but surprisingly, not by that much.

Chicago Orange Line

Daily ridership:63,037