[denfromoakvillemilton]

Apologies as I've been offline and don't have time to reply to solidsnake in detail but : you repeatedly asserted that I failed to address the funding side of the equation which is patently false. Go back through my posts and you will see dozens of posts calling for a more powerful metrolinx, regional governance and funding, fare integration etc etc etc etc

The pproblem is some people are so stuck in what is that they can't see the future. Regional funding is happening and all the rest will happen, in one way or another, before the extension opens. And that's why, in short, not one argument you or anyone else makes about the purported logic of stopping at Steeles has any weight whatsoever. Telling me what the "ttc" stands for doesn't exactly change my pov.

I've spent 90% of my life on either side of Steeles and what needs to change is as clear to me as the sky is blue.


What you fail to perceive or choose to ignore is that the mere fact Toronto's mandate ends at Steeles (and by extension, it's not their problem if riders. (customers!) can't get from a to b easily) is the single biggest problem with transit in the gta aside from funding. You treat an absolutely fundamental disease as an excuse to short change people. I am guessing you don't work in customer service?

(And people who think growth at yonge and Steeles or even 7, is theoretical kill me. I assume you're also not yet willing to go all in on the whole "descended from apes" theory yet, but recently grudgingly admitted galileo might be on to something?)

Right now, on July 15 2014, there is no regional funding and it has not been announced. Right now, the TTC situation will not change despite the Vaughan extension, full fare and full cost. These people can't even get presto in the city to work properly.

 

[BMO]

Sigh.. what I meant by "theoretical" is that the condos have not been built yet. We really don't need to discuss commonly accepted scientific theory like gravity or evolution do we?

It's the difference between ridership from condos that aren't built yet, and other routes where the ridership is already there. Maybe "theoretical" isn't the right word, what I meant to express was justifying subways by showing future plans of condos that do not exist in physical form right now, and possibly might not be constructed or occupied in years.

It's not about what the acronym "TTC" stands for or about naming. It's that different transit agencies currently are responsible for different regions are areas. Perhaps it shouldn't be that way, but that's the way it is now, the TTC is currently responsible for the City of Toronto. That's just reality as it is, is all I was saying.

But even without the proposed condos the Yonge North Extension today could be justified. That's why it's not theoretical. Plus why would you pull a Sheppard and stub it a stone's throw from one of the biggest transit hubs in the GTHA (Richmond Hill Centre) which is also a huge trip generator/ transfer point for many people (VIVA/YRT, 407 Hwy, GO Train)? It's not going to be a line that drains the TTC's operating costs like Sheppard there's very little reason to not recommend this extension except for if you believe it will overcrowd the system further down the line.

 

[ShonTron]

No. Try `King City` or `Township of King` in Google maps instead.

The municipality is south of Newmarket between highway 400 and highway 404.

You wrote King County.

I am well aware of King Township, thank you very much.

 

[ehlow]

But even without the proposed condos the Yonge North Extension today could be justified.

If this is true then that's fine. It's just that personally if I'm choosing between two routes, one which has the ridership now, and the other which doesn't but people show me renderings of future condos to justify it, I choose the former. But if this route has the ridership already (through bus routes or density or both) then great.

 

[nfitz]

I also wrote that the context was within the GTA. I'm not sure my naming mistake created so much ambiguity that it suddenly included Washington State.

I read your post, and I didn't for a second link King County with King City.

When I hear King County, I think Seattle. I'd think most people would. I've never heard King Township or King City referred to as King County before.

 

[rbt]

I read your post, and I didn't for a second link King County with King City.

When I hear King County, I think Seattle. I'd think most people would. I've never heard King Township or King City referred to as King County before.

Fair enough. ShonTron, sorry for being snippy.

Anyway, you don't need to cast a net as wide as Seattle to find property taxes higher than Toronto's.

 

[nfitz]

Anyway, you don't need to cast a net as wide as Seattle to find property taxes higher than Toronto's.

Good grief. no. Toronto's residential tax rates are some of the lowest in the region. Just cross Steeles, head to Pickering, or Mississauga. The tax on virtually the same house with virtually the same value, goes up significantly.

Looking at the 2014 tax rates for Toronto, someone in Scarborough with a house values at $400,000 will pay about $2,600 in municipal tax to Toronto (plus $1,015 for the provincial education tax).

However someone in Pickering will pay about $5,495 in municipal tax ($1,875 to Pickering and $3,619 to Region of Durham) (plus $1,015 for the provincial education tax).

That's more than double the municipal tax! Now one might argue the house prices in Pickering are lower than Scarborough for a comparable house. Even if that is still true, they certainly aren't one-half the price!

It's quite shocking really. Does Pickering have more parks, ice rinks, libraries, per capita? Do they have better transiit?

 

[ShonTron]

Fair enough. ShonTron, sorry for being snippy.

Anyway, you don't need to cast a net as wide as Seattle to find property taxes higher than Toronto's.

No worries! I was a bit snippy too. It happens.

Is King Township's property taxes higher per capita (it being full of monster estate homes and hobby farms) or a higher residential rate per value of property? Except in Nobleton, there's hardly any industrial or commercial properties as well. I imagine Caledon might be similar, if not for Bolton's and Valleywood's run-of-the-mill subdivisions and industrial parks evening things out somewhat.

 

[muller877]

Good grief. no. Toronto's residential tax rates are some of the lowest in the region. Just cross Steeles, head to Pickering, or Mississauga. The tax on virtually the same house with virtually the same value, goes up significantly.

Looking at the 2014 tax rates for Toronto, someone in Scarborough with a house values at $400,000 will pay about $2,600 in municipal tax to Toronto (plus $1,015 for the provincial education tax).

However someone in Pickering will pay about $5,495 in municipal tax ($1,875 to Pickering and $3,619 to Region of Durham) (plus $1,015 for the provincial education tax).

That's more than double the municipal tax! Now one might argue the house prices in Pickering are lower than Scarborough for a comparable house. Even if that is still true, they certainly aren't one-half the price!

It's quite shocking really. Does Pickering have more parks, ice rinks, libraries, per capita? Do they have better transiit?

No...they simply have cheaper housing. But you cannot look at one region in Toronto vs Toronto as a city. The rate of tax is based on the fmv of all houses, not just one area. Yes, there will be an arbitrage at city borders but overall it should be quite simialar. So below is a comparison city to city. If we want apples to apples, we need to pick one type of housing (i.e. detached) to remove the mix of housing and look at the average price. Then voila...a comparison.


http://www.torontorealestateboard.com/market_news/market_watch/2014/mw1406.pdf

Average price of a detached house in Pickering = $553,000. $7199 in property taxes (including $1123 in property taxes)
Average of a detached house in Toronto = $921,000. $6658 in property taxes (including $1870 in school taxes)

So, about $500 different between the cities (or just over $1000 if you exclude the provincial component). It is more costly in Pickering, yes....but not by double.

But, there are 2 abnormalities when comparing Pickering and Toronto.

1. If you look at condos there is a pronounced benefit to living in Toronto for taxes. They have the same mill rate as houses and use different services. (i.e. more transit, less roads). Not sure which is cheaper...just different.
2. Toronto still has a lot of 1960's apartment buildings. They pay INSANE amounts of property tax (3x what residentialor condo owners pays). This helps out the general revenue of Toronto. Of course they need different services as well.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Toronto is cheaper as it is higher density, density means they can use the same amount of roads to service more people, same amount of firehalls, etc. Services are more efficient.

The large portion of commercial property helps as well. The downtown office market makes big bucks for the city.

 

[nfitz]

No...they simply have cheaper housing.

The municipal tax rate in Pickering is more than double that of Toronto. Do you suggest that house prices in Pickering are less than half of Toronto?

A quick look at mls.ca in zone E12 suggests otherwise. Let's check Whites and Sheppard. The 4 closest houses are $580K, $1,200K, $850K, $599K. Let's try up in the boonies at Taunton and Brock. $480K, $470K, $660K, $650K, $650K. My, those are small lots too!

Not only do I not think prices in Pickering are half that in Toronto. I'm not even convinced that they are cheaper than some areas near the subway! In fact the houses in NW Scarborough seem a bit cheaper!

Average price of a detached house in Pickering = $553,000. $7199 in property taxes (including $1123 in property taxes)
Average of a detached house in Toronto = $921,000. $6658 in property taxes (including $1870 in school taxes)

Hang on. That's sale value of homes that sold. Not assessed value of the average house. The assessed value of the average house in Toronto for 2014 was $499,521. It's hard to see what the Pickering value is. Lower for sure ... but not $250,000 I'd think. I wonder if MPAC data is available anywhere.

There's something odd about those recent "averages". My house assessed value is similar to the average, perhaps a bit lower. Similar houses to mine sell at about 20% above the assessed value lately. Yet the average for Toronto is nearly double? I have to think that the turnover of above-average houses is higher than below-average!

Let's ask what people actually pay. I've got a 3-bedroom detached house near the subway in Toronto. My municipal tax (not including education) was about $2,050 last year.

It is more costly in Pickering, yes....but not by double.

Perhaps not by double. But does seem more costly. Hard to see where money goes. Pickering only has 2 full-time libraries for 90,000 people (45,000 per library) (there are 2 more rural libraries that only open once a week or so). Toronto has 99 full-time libraries for 2.6 million - about 26,250 per library. I'm seeing similar on parks, though hard to quantify.

But, there are 2 abnormalities when comparing Pickering and Toronto.

1. If you look at condos there is a pronounced benefit to living in Toronto for taxes. They have the same mill rate as houses and use different services. (i.e. more transit, less roads). Not sure which is cheaper...just different.
2. Toronto still has a lot of 1960's apartment buildings. They pay INSANE amounts of property tax (3x what residentialor condo owners pays). This helps out the general revenue of Toronto. Of course they need different services as well.

Another factor is simply lot sizes. There are some HUGE lots in Pickering. There's much more road, sidewalk, sewer, watermain, etc. to maintain per house. Garbage trucks drive further to service each house, etc.

 

[aquateam]

Average price of a detached house in Pickering = $553,000. $7199 in property taxes (including $1123 in property taxes)
Average of a detached house in Toronto = $921,000. $6658 in property taxes (including $1870 in school taxes)

The average detached house in Toronto is almost worth a million?!! I believe it, I'm just surprised that it's gotten that bad.

Can anyone offer insight into why school taxes are about 65% more in Toronto than in Pickering? It sounds like an unfair provincial formula.

 

[nfitz]

Can anyone offer insight into why school taxes are about 65% more in Toronto than in Pickering? It sounds like an unfair provincial formula.

The province uses the same mill rate for education taxes everywhere in the province. So if you are in a small rural town where the average house only costs $100,000 then you pay about $200 in education tax instead of $1,000. It was a Tory/Mike Harris move to shift a higher burden of education taxes onto the GTA and particularly Toronto. Though shame on the Liberals not to have fixed it by now, to normalize it. The net effect is that despite similar funding per student, those in Toronto pay a lot more per student in education tax than in many places.

 

[TOareaFan]

The province uses the same mill rate for education taxes everywhere in the province. So if you are in a small rural town where the average house only costs $100,000 then you pay about $200 in education tax instead of $1,000. It was a Tory/Mike Harris move to shift a higher burden of education taxes onto the GTA and particularly Toronto. Though shame on the Liberals not to have fixed it by now, to normalize it. The net effect is that despite similar funding per student, those in Toronto pay a lot more per student in education tax than in many places.

I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it but, on the surface, using the same mill rate province wide for education seems to make some sense.....is there a wide variance in the cost of education per household province wide? much variance in the service offerings?

Like I said, this is the first time I have really thought about it but it does seem to have some logic to it.

 

[nfitz]

I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it but, on the surface, using the same mill rate province wide for education seems to make some sense.....is there a wide variance in the cost of education per household province wide? much variance in the service offerings?

Does it make sense? If, at the rate we are going, the average house in Toronto is heading to $1.5 million, and the average house in Cornwall is heading to $150,000.

So a Toronto household should pay $2,000 in education tax while an average household in Cornwall should pay $200? Meanwhile, each board gets the same amount of $ per child.