[TheTigerMaster]

Of course they'd prefer that, but there's only so much money to go around. If the options are to extend to Steeles and build a storage track in YR, or continue terminating at Finch, the logical preferred option for YR is Steeles.

Of course if the aforementioned hurts YR's feelings too much, we could just terminate at finch without a problem.

 

[BMO]

If York Region were that stupid, I hope and expect thay the Province would put them in their place rather quick. They'd sat that either they accept the extension to Steeles with storage track, or get nothing at all.

this is kind of funny considering how much Toronto can seemingly waste money left and right without a real plan and the Province is expected to not "put them in their place".

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What are you talking about? The last time a Toronto wanted to waste billions of dollars to make some people feel better about themselves, the province told the City to get the money themselves.

 

[Tuscani01]

In Peel region, the only high school buses are for students living in areas that do not have a high school yet (ie. new areas that have grown faster than the boards can build schools) but students in stabilized areas or students who choose to go to a high shcool out of their home zone either have to drive, be driven or take public transit.

Elementry school busing in Peel is based on distance and major road crossings. Eg. when my daughter was in grade 1 we were, distance wise, within the walking distance.....but because a crossing of Hurontario/Main/Highway 10 (at the time) she was eligible for busing. My wife and I just used to walk her most days (it was during these walks that we created our own version of the U2 song "where the streets have 3 names").

So, in short, I don't know how different the busing rules are in Toronto compared to outside Toronto other than those new growth spurt areas...but that is typically a temporary situation until the boards get the schools built.

Not true about highschools in Peel, they use similar standards as grade schools. In Mississauga, my parents live just south of the 401 and both my brother and sister had to take a bus to their highschool on the other side of the 401, despite it being around a 10 minute walk. Anyone north of the 401 does not get bus service as they do not need to cross the 401 to get to the school.

 

[BMO]

What are you talking about? The last time a Toronto wanted to waste billions of dollars to make some people feel better about themselves, the province told the City to get the money themselves.

after it had already changed twice! LRT (ok) -> Underground LRT (ok) -> LRT (ok) -> LRT + Subway extension (ffs)

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

In my written submission to TTC Commissioners and the EA Process, I stated at no time could TTC or York Region could come up with the numbers that the line would carry a peak time on opening day to the point I said they would be Lucky to see 1,500 riders. Based on various numbers, York Region would need 15% yearly increase to meet 8,000 riders by 2030 and still below the thresh hold for a subway.

Based on numbers from day 1, service would be every 10-15 minutes at peak time to be carry north of Steeles and would fall to 6 minutes by 2030 at best.

An BRT will handle the ridership north of Steeles, but I call for an LRT in place of the BRT.

Please pardon the length of the forthcoming rant....I understand that's what you stated, but it contradicts what Metrolinx has found.

The City of Toronto and TTC in conjunction with York Region produced demand forecasts, reported in the Yonge Subway Extension Demand Forecasting Report in
January 2011. These estimate that in 2031 over 20,000 people will board the subway in the morning peak hour from the extended subway section and travel
southbound...While the specific modelling results from the various studiess conducted along the corridor vary, they all suggest substantial ridership growth in the corridor from
2006 to 2031, potentially by 70% to 90%.

Also from their analysis:
5. The Yonge North Subway Extension is supported by a wealth of policy and planning documents beyond The Big Move. Population and employment forecasts
suggest that York Region will be one of the fastest growing areas in the GTHA and neighbours Toronto, which already has significant existing population and
employment that are also projected to grow. Both York Region and Toronto have undertaken or are underway with a planning policy framework that
supports urban intensification along its major rapid transit centers and corridors. These policy and planning studies support the significant increase in
ridership projected for the Yonge corridor.

And: "Demand levels forecast on the line are higher than the subway planning capacity estimates."

And so on and so on. I know these aren't opening day numbers but it ain't 2006 anymore and even if the line was approved today, it wouldn't open until after 2020 and intensification is happening already. Here is a York Region modelling study from 2011 that, again, shows 2021 numbers that are well above BRT or even LRT capacity; about 17K boardings southbound at morning peak (starting around p.20, if you care). As the report notes, once you're over 10K, subway becomes the way to go.

I think it's about every 15 or 20 pages this thread cycles back on itself.

I hate saying the same things over and over again but it DRIVES ME CRAZY when people talk about the line only in terms of itself. For the 50th time, Markham and Vaughan have already revised their OPs to allow significant intensification along Yonge Street, specifically because the subway. Toronto (finally) is doing the same.

Moreover, as I suspect you know, there is a growth node - designated through both Places to Grow and The Big Move - which is projected to house about 50,000 people and 30,000 jobs IN ADDITION to what's planned for Yonge and that is specifically tied to the subway. Not RER, not BRT or any other lesser form of transit but the subway. That's because the YRT/Viva system already converges there with GO and the planned transitway. Anything less than a subway is less density and more people living elsewhere, further from transit, maybe out in sprawlville.

Ergo, stopping the line at Steeles is an absolute waste of time and money. It doesn't address regional planning reality, it doesn't address the reality of how people move in and around the region, it doesn't do anything to meet Toronto's planning objectives either and it is quite literally counter to the explicit plans the province has already established for the network. Starting to dig to move the line 2 km, while stopping it like 3km short of where major E/W transit is converging is and around which major intensification is planned....well, it doesn't make sense to me, I'll say.

The only bigger waste of time and money I can think of is constantly reversing decisions on what do in Scarborough, culminating the decision to build a 3-stop subway. Or 4. 3 or 4. Or maybe an LRT. Indeed, as with Scarborough, the only reason to extend the subway from Finch to Steeles is to demonstrate in unequivocal terms that we still have the same cheap, short-sighted planning in place we've had for 30 or so years and have no intention of changing now. There are issues with how it will all come together but there is arguably no other project in the entire Big Move (save, perhaps, RER/electrification) that is as self-evident or "safe" a bet. Because Yonge Street will always be Yonge Street.

The legit concern (aside from lack of funding!) is the downstream capacity. RER and/or DRL will help but given that the intensification north of Steeles is not coming all at once, and given that the EA for the line is already done, I see no reason it can't go forward as soon as the $ is there, with the DRL following concurrently or right after. That's academic, for now.

I've said it all before, but now I've said it again. how long til I say it again? Time will tell.

(Oh, and I don't know what all the debate about the storage track is. The city approved the subway [as discussed above] subject to several conditions, including the DRL, renovations to Yonge/Bloor etc. One factor was a rail yard needs study and they finished it and decided to put it north of RHC. If Toronto actually moved to take the subway up to Steeles and then store the trains there, and I was York Region, I'd do everything in my power to obstruct that. It doesn't help them at all, in terms of their intensification goals or improving the efficiency of their transit system. If you looked at a map without lines [or if Toronto went up to Highway 7] you would NEVER suggest stopping at Steeles in a million years. It only makes sense because you know that's where the [obsolete] border happens to be.

In the meantime, I know how much Toronto likes ignoring or undermining regional plans and wasting money but this time there are other powers (i.e. the province and York Region, and the lower-tier munis in YR too) involved and they won't let that happen.)

 

[TOareaFan]

Not true about highschools in Peel, they use similar standards as grade schools. In Mississauga, my parents live just south of the 401 and both my brother and sister had to take a bus to their highschool on the other side of the 401, despite it being around a 10 minute walk. Anyone north of the 401 does not get bus service as they do not need to cross the 401 to get to the school.

I would imagine that is a special rule caused by (it sounds like) the 401 cutting through a school's district.

 

[minilude]

I'm done reading that yonge north would danger the capacity, yonge/bloor transfer, etc etc...wouldn't the eglinton crosstown, the sheppard subway, the scarborough subway bring more riderships to yonge line?? because that's the only line going south in the east part of Toronto!!!

 

[gweed123]

When you look at the "priority projects" of each city/regional government, York's is the only one that's way out of whack in terms of $/citizen. Durham and Halton both want BRT's along their major corridors (Highway 2 and Dundas respectively), while Peel mainly wants the Hurontario LRT. Peel's ask is $1.6 billion for a population of about 1.3 million, or $1230 per person. York's ask is $3.1 billion for a population of about 1 million, or $3100 per person, almost 3x as much.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I'm done reading that yonge north would danger the capacity, yonge/bloor transfer, etc etc...wouldn't the eglinton crosstown, the sheppard subway, the scarborough subway bring more riderships to yonge line?? because that's the only line going south in the east part of Toronto!!!

The Yonge arm goes as far north as Finch, while the Spadina arm will be extended past Steeles to Highway 7. Once the extension opens, the Spadina arm will be fed by more routes from the north than at present.

Currently, the Finch station is fed by both 53 Steeles East and 60 Steeles West. The Pioneer Village station will siphon passengers off the 60 Steeles West, for example. Same for the 36 Finch West, most may transfer at the Finch West station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Moreover, as I suspect you know, there is a growth node - designated through both Places to Grow and The Big Move - which is projected to house about 50,000 people and 30,000 jobs IN ADDITION to what's planned for Yonge and that is specifically tied to the subway. Not RER, not BRT or any other lesser form of transit but the subway. That's because the YRT/Viva system already converges there with GO and the planned transitway. Anything less than a subway is less density and more people living elsewhere, further from transit, maybe out in sprawlville.

The Yonge North extension up to Richmond Hill Centre and the Relief Line are the only two worthwhile and justifiable subway projects in this city. It's disappointing to see that they're dead last on the priority list. If I could, I would cancel Scarborough Subway, terminate TYSSE at Steeles and redirect funds to Yonge and Relief Line.

And terminating Spadina at Steeles has nothing to do with the municipal borders. It's to better facilitate busses coming in from the north, so they don't have to enter YorkU, while providing relief to Yonge Line.

Ergo, stopping the line at Steeles is an absolute waste of time and money. It doesn't address regional planning reality, it doesn't address the reality of how people move in and around the region, it doesn't do anything to meet Toronto's planning objectives either and it is quite literally counter to the explicit plans the province has already established for the network. Starting to dig to move the line 2 km, while stopping it like 3km short of where major E/W transit is converging is and around which major intensification is planned....well, it doesn't make sense to me, I'll say.

I disagree. Extending it to Steeles will improve bus flow onto the subway. Apparently Yonge Street south of Steeles is now unable to handle the bus traffic coming in from York Region.

It doesn't help them at all, in terms of their intensification goals or improving the efficiency of their transit system.

As I said before, it would improve the efficiency of their transit system by granting busses easier access to Yonge Line.

 

[innsertnamehere]

highway 7 BRT also isn't that major, isn't its ridership something meagre like 6,000 trips a day? the bus runs on 15 minute frequencies off peak for christs sake..

I mean every time the concept of ending the extension at Steeles comes up We quickly get a large rebuttal by TJ, but it isn't as bad of a concept as he/she makes it out to be. Probably saves a good 5 minutes off of Viva Blue trip times.

In the end the Province won't have the money for the full Yonge extension, so unless York Region is willing to pony up some serious cash, if there is going to be a Yonge extension in the next decade it is going to Steeles. there isn't much to say about it, really.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

When you look at the "priority projects" of each city/regional government, York's is the only one that's way out of whack in terms of $/citizen. Durham and Halton both want BRT's along their major corridors (Highway 2 and Dundas respectively), while Peel mainly wants the Hurontario LRT. Peel's ask is $1.6 billion for a population of about 1.3 million, or $1230 per person. York's ask is $3.1 billion for a population of about 1 million, or $3100 per person, almost 3x as much.

So....just to be clear, we're UPSET or disappointed that a suburban municipality is pushing so hard to get public transit so people won't drive as much? Is it"out of whack" or is it just "forward thinking, long overdue and 100% in sync with the planning objectives outlined by the province."???

Maybe it's the other regions that are "out of whack" for their continued reliance on automobile infrastructure?

And, BTW, York is the only of those regions that has most of its population strung out along the contiguous Toronto border, kind of the way Canada's is all along the US border.

The Yonge North extension up to Richmond Hill Centre and the Relief Line are the only two worthwhile and justifiable subway projects in this city. It's disappointing to see that they're dead last on the priority list. If I could, I would cancel Scarborough Subway, terminate TYSSE at Steeles and redirect funds to Yonge and Relief Line.

Total agreement!

And terminating Spadina at Steeles has nothing to do with the municipal borders. It's to better facilitate busses coming in from the north, so they don't have to enter YorkU, while providing relief to Yonge Line.

I thought we were talking about Yonge....but I'd still make the same argument I did for Yonge. Assuming (gulp) the Transitway gets built, it's absurd to bring the subway 2km short of that and major, planned "downtown" for Vaughan. Like most, I'm curious how that will turn out but stopping the subway just short of it is a sure way to shoot it in the foot.

I disagree. Extending it to Steeles will improve bus flow onto the subway. Apparently Yonge Street south of Steeles is now unable to handle the bus traffic coming in from York Region.

Well, I live JUST north of Yonge and it's no mean shakes on this side either. you can stand at Yonge/Steeles and see 5-10 busses pass by in a MINUTE if you're timing is right. And that's without getting into the whole sub-issue of double fares and YRT buses not being able to pick up TTC riders waiting for a bus on the south side etc. etc.


But moving the line to Steeles does not substantially alter that and, again, it's at the expense of intensification to the north. I thought we were past the point of building transit without considering development patterns (but, as you point out, then there's Scarborough). Spending all that time and money to get buses off the street on ONE side of Steeles, while inhibiting Markham's (and vaughan's and Richmond Hill's) ability to build denser, transit-oriented communities strikes me as absurd, honestly. The development potential from Steeles to Highway 7 is greater than that from Finch to Steeles, and by a fair margin.

As I said before, it would improve the efficiency of their transit system by granting busses easier access to Yonge Line.

Riiiiight. But not nearly as much as if you built the line to where the terminal is, right? How does it help them when they already have buses and GO converging at highway 7 (and a BRT going north from there too, btw, soon). That seems glaringly obvious; as if the TTC bus terminal was at Finch but the subway ending at Sheppard.
So, thanks but no thanks.

highway 7 BRT also isn't that major, isn't its ridership something meagre like 6,000 trips a day? the bus runs on 15 minute frequencies off peak for christs sake..

I mean every time the concept of ending the extension at Steeles comes up We quickly get a large rebuttal by TJ, but it isn't as bad of a concept as he/she makes it out to be. Probably saves a good 5 minutes off of Viva Blue trip times.

Right. And show me where in The Big Move and Places to Grow it talks about shaving minutes off bus times. What they DO talk about is a seamless transit network, creating more transit-oriented development etc. THOSE are the reasons the subway is needed and the province can't pass laws requiring municipalities to intensify and then build transit to just a little bit away from where they decide to do it. Y'all are talking about BUS FLOW as if that's even one of the Top 5 most important things about this project. It's not.
So, yeah, going to Steeles is a bad concept.

(And I'm a "he" so you can take pokes at me in that context )

In the end the Province won't have the money for the full Yonge extension, so unless York Region is willing to pony up some serious cash, if there is going to be a Yonge extension in the next decade it is going to Steeles. there isn't much to say about it, really.

My crystal ball tells me: York Region is more likely than Toronto to pay their fare share. Toronto's already paying for Scarborough the next 30 years, for starters. It also tells me that revenue tools, in one form or another, are coming and the province WILL have a good chunk of the money. I'm uncertain (but always a touch optimistic) the feds will come through on transit one day but even from a vote-buying perspective, the Yonge extension is a good one for them. Obviously funding is a big concern but I don't see the economy of scale in going just from Finch to to Steeles so some buses can travel faster.

 

[minilude]

highway 7 BRT also isn't that major, isn't its ridership something meagre like 6,000 trips a day? the bus runs on 15 minute frequencies off peak for christs sake..

I mean every time the concept of ending the extension at Steeles comes up We quickly get a large rebuttal by TJ, but it isn't as bad of a concept as he/she makes it out to be. Probably saves a good 5 minutes off of Viva Blue trip times.

In the end the Province won't have the money for the full Yonge extension, so unless York Region is willing to pony up some serious cash, if there is going to be a Yonge extension in the next decade it is going to Steeles. there isn't much to say about it, really.

looks like you are Steve Del Duca? Never thought an individual Joe can speak out so affirmatively if the province has the money or not or if the subway is going to be end at Steeles or not.

 

[gweed123]

So....just to be clear, we're UPSET or disappointed that a suburban municipality is pushing so hard to get public transit so people won't drive as much? Is it"out of whack" or is it just "forward thinking, long overdue and 100% in sync with the planning objectives outlined by the province."???

Maybe it's the other regions that are "out of whack" for their continued reliance on automobile infrastructure?

And, BTW, York is the only of those regions that has most of its population strung out along the contiguous Toronto border, kind of the way Canada's is all along the US border.

I'm just saying that compared to other municipalities in the GTHA that are asking for Provincial funding for their priority projects, York Region is asking for significantly more per person than anywhere else. If York Region were to ask for a 1/3rd funding split, which would bring the per person Provincial contribution in line with other areas, then I would have no problem with it at all.

I just want to see Provincial transit dollars distributed equitably. Most areas of the GTHA are in the neighbourhood of $1000-$1500 per person for their priority projects. If a municipality determines that it's needs fall beyond what that per person allotment, then I think the municipality should be responsible for paying for the difference themselves, or putting in a request for federal funding, like Toronto did with the Scarborough Subway.

Toronto's priority project is the DRL. If Metrolinx covers $4 billion of it, which seems to be what has been indicated, that would put it at around $1500 per person in Toronto.