Their forecast for Steeles is a bit suspicious, if we compare it to Clark and to Finch.

I can understand Steeles having less than Finch, perhaps 80% or 70% of Finch since the Steeles W and E bus routes are not as busy as Finch W and E. But only 40% of Finch sounds too low.

And how Clark can have 2 times more than Steeles, is anyone's guess. Clark is a short street that has bus service west of Yonge only; and that single bus route is way less busy than Steeles W or E buses.

Yes, TODAY there is a single bus route but it's a fair bet YRT will re-align things substantially once the subway is open. I'm not 100% clear on this but I believe, as one example, they are going to reroute a Viva Orange bus that goes across Clark. So, that will feed people coming from the west (York U, Promenade etc.) into the subway without having to cut north on Hwy. 7. I don't know how they did all the calculations but bear those sorts of things in mind.
 
To get to RHC numbers, Need a huge parking lot and a real beef up transit system. The best I could come up going out on the limb, was 8,100 by 2035. VIVA Blue wasn't even doing 1,000 at peak time when I did my numbers. It would have to increase 15% yearly to get close to a good number.

Finch would see a drop in Ridership number as those riders would be parking in York and would help the line number.

Royal Orchard was supposed to have been removed from the plan now due to low numbers.

If plan development take place for Cummer, that number will be way higher than call for. Think along North York Centre line. Same for Steeles and you need to factor in all the buses not going to Finch like they do today. Clark too high.

Yes you need to think of an express line as the 2nd Yonge line on opening day that will service haft the current station as well following another route south of Eglinton to Queens Quay. You can run a 3 track line for the 2nd line or 4 tracks.

The issue I have today, there is no space south of Eglinton, let alone Sheppard by 2031 and that is too late.

Out of curiosity what mode share % do you assume for RHC? Mor einterested in what chunk Active Transportation could take since the intensification opportunities around RHC are quite big, I could see a decent chunk of boardings coming from this as opposed to just straight car, and YRT transfers. You may even get people coming from GO stations further north transferring to get to midto
 
you say two contradictory things: a lot of the YRT buses now going to Finch will, as you say, not go there anymore. Where will they go? How about Clark?! (Not all of them, obviously.) That's why Clark isn't too high.
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Just an FYI for everyone...the Route 5 Clark is actually one of the best performing routes for YRT, if you take into account that if the subway is extended, many riders who currently walk to Steeles could potentially transfer to the 5, or people between Hilda and Yonge would probably just walk to the subway. Not to mentionClark has three High Schools on it's short length, two community centres, a shopping mall/ large YRT transfer point connection (promenade terminal), and various religious facilities and other trip generators, it's actually a small street that has quite a few destinations. Also Routes 77 and other routes that go along Centre, John and Royal Orchard will be transferring at Clark now that Royal Orchard has been cancelled. Most of those routes are pretty good performance routes. I don't think the Clark Numbers (with plenty of intensification opportunities) are too high.
 
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Also bear in mind that ridership numbers can and have been cooked in the past to produce somebody's desired outcome for their pet project.
If York wanted to cook the numbers, they'd make them much smaller. They are so huge, it stops project, because of impact to existing riders.
 
Out of curiosity what mode share % do you assume for RHC? Mor einterested in what chunk Active Transportation could take since the intensification opportunities around RHC are quite big, I could see a decent chunk of boardings coming from this as opposed to just straight car, and YRT transfers. You may even get people coming from GO stations further north transferring to get to midto

A good Q and it relates to the "accusations" about cooking the numbers.

As I've explained elsewhere, the RHC/Langstaff node (ESPECIALLY on the Markham side) is reverse engineered from the capacity of the planned transit there, especially the subway. Accordingly, at full build-out, the modal share for the Markham half of the centre is (yes, really) 35% auto/65% other. There's only one road in and out so it's the only way the centre develops. RH isn't as aggressive but even if it's overall 50/50, that's amazing for a "suburb." Development is keyed to infra coming online (e.g. subway, transitway) and hitting modal share targets through a phasing regime. Obviously the numbers are also contingent on the Transitway coming online as something like 85% of riders are expected to transfer to the subway or GO.

It, in short, is an entirely different way of planning and some people have trouble wrapping their heads around it, since we still plan transit here as if it's 1986.

This is why, contrary to what the 44Norths of the world think, the subway is so crucial. Those numbers depend on the subway and the subway depends on the numbers, see?
 
I’ve been mulling on replying to the bombardment a couple days ago. Felt I didn’t need to rush it, but here are a few points to get out of the way:

On a given weekday, all of Viva seems to carry the equivalent of the 512 streetcar on St Clair. That’s pretty low. And the 30km Viva Blue (the busiest route) carries, what, ~18,000? As well it seems that Viva and Blue appear to have lost some ridership between 2012 and 2013. And yet we’re to somehow believe that in 15 years a subway b/n Finch and 7 will supposedly carry 10x all of Viva Blue’s current ridership, and have ~19,000 s/b peak at Steeles? That seems more like a quantum leap than simple growth. For a comparison Toronto’s eastern waterfront (which fits every definition of GGH P2G intensification, as does every development in TO) has a more realistic and modest 25 to 30-year development timeframe. And even then signs are pointing to that schedule as being stretched out longer.

This is why, contrary to what the 44Norths of the world think, the subway is so crucial. Those numbers depend on the subway and the subway depends on the numbers, see?

44Norths like to see more transit (particularly of the rapid variety), more development, more distribution of finite funds, and are more willing to “work within the contextâ€. Regardless: 1) those “numbers†don’t exist except for on paper, and even then are at the highest projection. 2) once the Relief study is released, obviously we’ll have some better numbers re: what a realigned RH-RER / RH-DRL can do to the inflated (cooked?) 2031 modelling numbers for Yonge North. For discussion, here are some basic points from Neptis as to why transit demand and mixed growth isn’t necessarily a guarantee with large-scale suburban developments:

-It’s difficult to replicate the features of a busy corridor such as downtown and midtown sections of Yonge in a suburban context.

-Creating dense, mixed, “complete†communities – and the impact on transportation behaviour – is likely to be incremental rather than transformative.

-While 32.6 per cent of the trips to a Yonge-Eglinton destination rely on public transit, the equivalent proportion for North York Centre is 22.8 per cent.

-The width of Yonge Street and high traffic levels are detrimental to the pedestrian environment of North York Centre.

-Variations in the availability of free parking also account for differences in modal shares. The effect of parking costs is particularly noticeable, where it adds to the impact of public transit levels.

-Two tendencies account for the difficulties nodes face in their attempts to lure office space. The first is a notable deceleration since 1990 in the rate of office development in the Greater Toronto Area. The second is the predilection of office developers and tenants for dispersed suburban locales, especially business parks, which offer easy access to expressways and abundant surface parking.

-Some of the most prominent, and possibly difficult to reach, among these objectives are the mixing of residential and employment uses.

-The most difficult nut to crack is the location of employment.

-The failure of nodes to attract sufficient office employment also impedes the full achievement of mixed-use goals for nodes and cripples the potential for inner synergy. In some nodes, inner synergy is also hindered by an environment that is ill-suited to walking.

-new UGCs will need to create clusters of office jobs from scratch in a climate that is unfavourable to concentrations of such employment. Furthermore, current retail and office development patterns run counter to the objectives of UGCs at the heart of the Places to Grow strategy.

-The Growth Plan includes neither incentives for municipalities to go beyond the minimum targets, nor penalties for those that fall short.

-The danger is that the longer a site earmarked for nodal development fails to attract growth, the greater the chance that it will revert to conventional suburban land use patterns. [<-e.g like if a subway ext is delayed by a generation because of current capacity issues, lack of funding tools, lack of alternative financing methods, other regional priorities/promises that need addressing; and ends up costing so much it's cancelled outright]
 
I’ve been mulling on replying to the bombardment a couple days ago. Felt I didn’t need to rush it, but here are a few points to get out of the way:

Oh, good. Really, you don't deserve more than crickets at this point but I enjoy the back-and-forth in a kind of masochistic way.

On a given weekday, all of Viva seems to carry the equivalent of the 512 streetcar on St Clair. That’s pretty low. And the 30km Viva Blue (the busiest route) carries, what, ~18,000? As well it seems that Viva and Blue appear to have lost some ridership between 2012 and 2013. And yet we’re to somehow believe that in 15 years a subway b/n Finch and 7 will supposedly carry 10x all of Viva Blue’s current ridership, and have ~19,000 s/b peak at Steeles?

Gotcha: single bus route shows short-term ridership drop after the overall system sees 300% growth in just over a decade = why build a subway?

-It’s difficult to replicate the features of a busy corridor such as downtown and midtown sections of Yonge in a suburban context.

So true! I think of it every time I walk past Yonge and Empress, in all its SUBURBAN glory.

-Creating dense, mixed, “complete” communities – and the impact on transportation behaviour – is likely to be incremental rather than transformative.

I don't think those terms are mutually exclusive but at best you're describing a chicken-egg scenario. As I said, not building the subway is a sure way to realize an INCREMENTAL vision rather than a transformative one. Dropping gas prices aside, everything has been aligned and ready to implement transit-oriented development in the GTA and, in particular, to harness the potential of a unique hub/corridor, like Yonge north of Steeles. You have legislation and plans (at the provincial and municipal levels) in place, calling for transformative change. You can go all in, introduce revenue tools, build what you know you need etc., or you can nickle-and-dime and then bitch about how little you accomplished.

-The width of Yonge Street and high traffic levels are detrimental to the pedestrian environment of North York Centre.

That strikes me as a red herring. Not everywhere has to be Yonge and Dundas. That doesn't mean you can't build a compact, walkable, transit-oriented centre outside the core. North York Centre ain't Yonge and Dundas but it's pretty well traveled by pedestrians, certainly in that Empress area. Compared to 1986, its urbanity is remarkable.

-Variations in the availability of free parking also account for differences in modal shares. The effect of parking costs is particularly noticeable, where it adds to the impact of public transit levels.

This is what I mean when I say you have no vision of the future. Paid parking in the suburbs, like fare integration, is coming sooner rather than later. All these things are in motion, is what you fail to grasp.

-Two tendencies account for the difficulties nodes face in their attempts to lure office space. The first is a notable deceleration since 1990 in the rate of office development in the Greater Toronto Area. The second is the predilection of office developers and tenants for dispersed suburban locales, especially business parks, which offer easy access to expressways and abundant surface parking.

There's probably more than just those two but there is no question that getting employment uses in these nodes is the real key. You make like 5 points about this and they're all obvious. But I'll tell you this - do you know one thing employers look for? Access to transit. Oh, sure, they don't look ONLY for subways but I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying "walk to the Yonge subway" improves your marketability.

Markham Centre is off to a decent start, Vaughan less so, so far. What THIS subway has over those is its centrality; Yonge Street. I'm not naive enough to think the renderings will be magically achieved precisely as envisioned like some kind of shake and bake. But that doesn't mean we don't know the ingredients that will go into making them successful. To deal with your beloved example, asking someone to transfer from the 407 Transitway to the LRT to the subway in the space of 10 minutes is not one of those ingredients.

-The Growth Plan includes neither incentives for municipalities to go beyond the minimum targets, nor penalties for those that fall short.

True - but here's the joke, sir. But even though they don't have to meet them and even though the province can't make them, Markham BLEW those targets out of the water. They said, "Give us a subway and we'll give you a transit-oriented hub unlike anything else in North America. You want 200 people/jobs per hectare? We'll quadruple that!"

And what do you say? You say, "Meh, howsabout I save a few bucks, give you an LRT and you do whatever you can."

If you support the ideals of the growth plan (as you seem to, at least broadly) it seems awful hypocritical to actively undermine the single plan in the entire GTHA that is most aggressive about realizing those ideals. Really, this baffles me.

(Credit where due: Richmond Hill's plan also substantially exceeds the minimum targets. And I hope it goes without saying Markham is beating them not only in this node but by 50% citywide.)

-The danger is that the longer a site earmarked for nodal development fails to attract growth, the greater the chance that it will revert to conventional suburban land use patterns. [<-e.g like if a subway ext is delayed by a generation because of current capacity issues, lack of funding tools, lack of alternative financing methods, other regional priorities/promises that need addressing; and ends up costing so much it's cancelled outright]

If you knew the geographical context of Langstaff you would understand that this is impossible, actually. It's so small and constrained developers could not possibly make money with a traditional suburban development. The same goes for the rest of this corridor. There are already mature neighbourhoods a block or two in. No developer on the planet would spend the money to redevelop a block of Yonge Street on this stretch with "conventional suburban land use patterns." It is an economic impossibility.

But again, there's a hypocrisy here. Are you going to invest in a subway, spend a little more trying to get the big payoff, or are you going to go the cheap route, and try do your best with what you got (like, say, the Sheppard line)? This node is not going anywhere. Yonge is not going anywhere. Even without the subway there will be more projects like World on Yonge and you know what? The people who live there will walk to Steeles or pay the super-annoying double fare or get in their cars and drive to Finch and take the subway, overwhelming your stupid, outdated, underinvested, chickens**t system anyway. So put your money on the table and try to do better, or don't complain when it all collapses under its own weight.
 
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Here are some basic points from Neptis as to why transit demand and mixed growth isn’t necessarily a guarantee with large-scale suburban developments:

So why exactly were you expecting development at Thorncliffe Park that would justify your proposed DRL alignment, but when it comes to Yonge now you are being all cautious?
 
@TJ My points were about Viva/Viva Blue - and how Steeles is clearly not as "meaningless" as you claim. Transit as a mode share in YR is a testament to that. And TBH I would never want a well-established and praiseworthy legacy agency like the TTC to be amalgamated with YRT and its convoluted system of private operators and iffy service.

The second point I made was re: the Relief Study and how a realigned RH RER would change the Yonge modelling (even for non-downtown bound riders). Which seems to be something people can agree on.

All the other statements were posted by me, but I didn't write them (except the first point, which I rephrased. I cant recall if NYCC was included in their term "Yonge corridor"). They're from Neptis in relation to P2G, with an attempt on my part to use the most relevant points related to suburban development and transit demand.

@Salsa
With my Don Line, the alignment is already there. It's called the Don Branch. I only added a station at Thorncliffe because it seems logical and is within walking distance of the neighbourhood of TP. But again, the alignment is very much in existence, and the corridor is most definitely owned by Metrolinx. And I'm quite certain it's being looked at closely for an RH diversion (as it's been looked at by GO in the past for the same purpose).
 
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I only added a station at Thorncliffe because it seems logical and is within walking distance of the neighbourhood of TP.
You'll have us believe that you tossed logic out the window for your DRL alignment, but suddenly it was necessary for that location? Stop, I've got a cold ... it hurts to laugh so hard!
 
You'll have us believe that you tossed logic out the window for your DRL alignment, but suddenly it was necessary for that location? Stop, I've got a cold ... it hurts to laugh so hard!

Excluding my fantasy alignment from B/D to Union, would you disagree with Metrolinx if they proposed diverting the RH Line to their own Don Branch (and if so offered a stop at Thorncliffe in a similar location as mine)? I don't know why it seems so far fetched...I believe it's highly plausible that RH will be diverted there in the future, and that it will be discussed once the long list of Relief options are presented. Agree or disagree?
 
@TJ My points were about Viva/Viva Blue - and how Steeles is clearly not as "meaningless" as you claim. Transit as a mode share in YR is a testament to that. And TBH I would never want a well-established and praiseworthy legacy agency like the TTC to be amalgamated with YRT and its convoluted system of private operators and iffy service.

The second point I made was re: the Relief Study and how a realigned RH RER would change the Yonge modelling (even for non-downtown bound riders). Which seems to be something people can agree on.

Dude, you just don't get it. When I showed you a rendering of a community that exceeds the growth targets - which you admit many municipalities aren't even trying to meet - you called it unimpressive. And you simultaneously demonstrated you were totally unaware of the even denser half of the growth centre Markham designed...So I point out how 50K new residents are contingent on the subway and you shrug it off. There's no new information that will sway you.

Steeles IS meaningless. You don't understand the travel patterns around the border. People will purposely avoid Viva south of 7 to get on TTC and avoid the double fare. I'm not saying that's causing the drop but I am saying that you are failing to understand how people and transit cross that border, because they are far from the same thing.

I never suggested amalgamating TTC and Viva so please throw that straw man out the window. What I DID say is that FARE INTEGRATION is inevitable and that will necessitate a redistribution of pooled operating funds and that will shoot your "But why should TORONTO's transit system help YORK REGION" argument clear out of the water. As for the "well-established and praiseworthy legacy agency" that is the TTC....gawd, you're making me laugh. You can tell me more about it tomorrow while I'm fishing in my pocket for a fricking token. Ancient Rome was also a "praiseworthy legacy" but time's sort of passed it by. Ditto the TTC, but that's for another thread.

I'm not going to reiterate how RER and subway are BOTH necessary for all these plans to work. Indeed, unless you have something constructive and thoughtful to say, I think I'm about getting to the end of what I have to say at all.
 
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Excluding my fantasy alignment from B/D to Union, would you disagree with Metrolinx if they proposed diverting the RH Line to their own Don Branch (and if so offered a stop at Thorncliffe in a similar location as mine)?
I would disagree with them if they thought it would effectively relieve Bloor-Yonge station, and provide higher-order transit to Flemingdon Park.
 

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