[Amare]

Amare was all, "I don't know how people think it says there's capacity..." Well now he knows.

Well I know for certain that many York Region Councillors, along with some newspaper reporters dont know how to read, interpret, and draw proper conclusions from a provincial report.

It's starting to become very apparent why the region is in significant debt.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm not going to quibble with people who say 96% is the same as 100%, which is full and then really the same at 111%

96% is irrelevant. We're using GTA v4 now, and the volume/capacity ration for YNSE is 111%.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The connecting feeder routes justify extension to at least Steeles. The Steeles East and West bus carry 55,000 together daily and operate 77 buses during morning peak hour. This is twice the amount of the entire VIVA network and more than four times the VIVA Blue Bus down Yonge Street (16,000). Plus the development potential at Newtonbrook Plaza and Steeles Corners would be huge on it's own. (And IMO is a lot more promising/realistic than Hwy-7/Yonge)

But - but THE CAPACITY!!! ISN'T ANYONE THINKING OF THE CAPACITY?!?!?!?!
Too many funny people on this board. Shoot down one argument, another pops up. Steeles hasn't made sense for generations, but it's totally OK to think there is any scenario on this planet where:
a) they build a subway north of Finch
b) it stops at Steeles

It'll never happen, so why discuss it?

This logic seems.... incredibly flawed...

"Oh we are not over the cliff yet, better keep moving forward!"

It's not a physical wall. it's a dynamic system - I can't explain it but I suspect you actually get it anyway.
if they are already at 111% and the line can be at 96% with the Yonge line open....what are you talking about, exactly? Are you suggesting that's not a step forward because 96% is within the margin of error of 100%?

Even if it was 100%, that would still be an 11% improvement!

The lack of logic is more stunning than the lack of math.

Except:
1. The fare the 905 riders pay had exactly nothing to do with the distance they travel;
2. The 905 riders live outside Toronto and therefore don't pay property taxes that fund so much of TTC operations; and
3. If outer suburbanites are so concerned about working downtown then they should be incented to live closer instead of in their sprawled, heavily-subsidized wasteland.

As for that bike bullshit, seriously, somebody who lives on half an acre in Richmond Hill should get a seat on a conveniently located subway while someone who lives in a densely populated area has trouble cramming onto a packed train? That's the kind of fucked up lunacy that has made transit in this region such a mess.

1. Makes no sense. First, if they came from York Region, they either paid a double fare or parking, so they did pay "by distance," way more so than any TTC rider.
2. So what?
3. You have no understanding of the economics of development so I'm not going to explain it.

But you're totally right - they should all go live near Rosedale station, the entire region. That would solve our problems.

Also, you kiss your mother with that mouth? Most of us can just and poke at each other - even crack the odd witticism - without the cursing. You know less than anyone else here and aren't as funny. Go the "I Hate 905" boards instead, why don't you?

96% is irrelevant. We're using GTA v4 now, and the volume/capacity ration for YNSE is 111%.

Like I said, I'm not going to quibble. Simple question for you and Amare:
-Does the report - GTAv4 or not - SAY that there will be a sliver of capacity? Yes, it does. it says there will be capacity EVEN IF the extension is open. That's what Alan Shefman said in the Star article.

I don't know what Amare is on about - the politicians know how to read stuff that's in black and white. No one came out last week and said, "Oh, but we're using GTAv4 now!" They said the report does not say that and Shefman was lying. It does. End of story.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If the best The Tiger Master et al can muster is that, sure it will be 15% better than today but still full, I say that proves it why it can and should be built.

You need to read the repots again. The v/c for YNSE in 2031 will have the same crowding as today, not 15% better.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's not a physical wall. it's a dynamic system - I can't explain it but I suspect you actually get it anyway.
if they are already at 111% and the line can be at 96% with the Yonge line open....what are you talking about, exactly? Are you suggesting that's not a step forward because 96% is within the margin of error of 100%?

Even if it was 100%, that would still be an 11% improvement!

The line won't be at 96% capacity with YNSE. It'll be at 111%.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

You need to read the repots again. The v/c for YNSE in 2031 will have the same crowding as today, not 15% better.

Same crowding as today but with new 7km extension that's fostering TOD in the suburbs?
Keep the same crowding as today but with 2500 buses/day off the road?
Keep the same crowding as today but with the completion of a major gap in the regional transit network that doesn't require a new transfer?
Keep the same crowding as today - even with all the population and ridership growth of 15 years in the future?

You've convinced me.
Let's do this thing!

 

[BMO]

The parking at Finch serves a purpose not only for York region residents but those that live east and west of the station. While the parking lots at Wilson and York Mills are disappearing, the parking at Finch will never be removed. They are in a hydro ROW and nothing else can be built there so removing the parking lots will not make the land any more productive.

With all the debate about the subway extension to RHC, the subway must be extended north from Finch to improve the operational bottleneck that exists today. As much as the TTC claims it can get train frequency down to 110 seconds, I find this to be pure imagination. The TTC can't even get trains into Finch station on a 2.5min frequency without creating a backlog of trains that reaches as far as York Mills some days. On Friday it took 20 mins to go from Sheppard Station to Finch station. That is insanity since I can walk that distance in the same amount of time. All because of trains backing up in the tunnels and TTC not able to turn trains around quickly.

Finch station track geometry doesn't bode well for increased service that is required to support the capacity. If you extend the subway at least to Steeles, Steeles can be designed with 3 platforms or better track geometry to allow trains to turn around much faster. So while the extension to Highway 7 requires the Relief Line to be built first, the extension to Steeles is long overdue and would improve service for mostly Toronto residents and some York Region residents living along Steeles. Think of how many buses on route 60 and 53 the TTC can save if it didn't have to have them go down to Finch station. The ridership at Yonge/Steeles more than justifies a subway station, and it would improve the operational speed of the Yonge line without overwhelming the Yonge line with new demand.

dude haven't you been paying attention? The Yonge North BCA purposely ommitted RH GO figures so what you're saying is obviously nonsense and nothing north of Finch warrants a subway.

 

[BMO]

Great idea. Too bad the Finch parking is at a hydro corridor that would never suitable for condo. Also would love to see TTC cutting all YRT lines crossing Steeles. It's TTC's territory and we definitely need a wall.

I say we put a border right at Steeles and every Toronto resident would require a passport to travel westbound TTC can only service Eastbound trips.

 

[kEiThZ]

I get that people are upset about taking on more riders from York Region. But it's totally unfair to hold the ridership inside the 416 between Steeles and Finch, hostage to such machinations. I don't see why the subway can't at least be extended to Steeles. It's a 2km extension one-stop extension for crying out loud. The don't even have to build the Cummer stop. Just rough it in. Get rid of all those YRT and VIVA buses clogging up Yonge and intercept the Steeles buses.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I say we put a border right at Steeles and every Toronto resident would require a passport to travel westbound TTC can only service Eastbound trips.

No 416ers allowed to attend Raptors905 games!
No Toronto residents allowed to visit Wonderland or McMichael gallery!
No 905ers allowed to shop at Eaton Centre or Yorkville!
Thornhill residents banned from skating at Nathan Philips Square!
Toronto residents forbidden from flying out of Mississauga's Pearson Airport!

Let's ditch these half-measures, take a lesson from Palma and Pman and fully commit to the 416/905 separation we know exists already. It's the only way for the region to move forward - in bits and pieces!

 

[BMO]

No 416ers allowed to attend Raptors905 games!
No Toronto residents allowed to visit Wonderland or McMichael gallery!
No 905ers allowed to shop at Eaton Centre or Yorkville!
Thornhill residents banned from skating at Nathan Philips Square!
Toronto residents forbidden from flying out of Mississauga's Pearson Airport!

Let's ditch these half-measures, take a lesson from Palma and Pman and fully commit to the 416/905 separation we know exists already. It's the only way for the region to move forward - in bits and pieces!

No Torontonians allowed to take York Region Roads to get to Muskoka/cottage country
No Torontonians will henceforth be able to blame all their problems on Vaughan!

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It's fun - we can keep going!

Markham residents should build their own zoo instead of visiting the one subsidized by Toronto taxpayers! If you want to visit Centre Island, same deal - take a ferry from Oakville because Toronto taxpayers are sick of subsidizing the ferries and having to wait in line and have seats taken by stinky 905ers on beautiful summer days!
Toronto should get its own collection of Group of 7 paintings!
Toronto needs its own nuclear power plant and waterfalls!
No more provision of Niagara wines to Toronto stores!
905ers no longer allowed to work in Toronto retail outlets!
Toronto stores no longer to be stocked from distribution centres in Vaughan and Brampton!

Yes, this is the recipe for success. It'll sure free up a lot of seats on the subway!

 

[muller877]

It's fun - we can keep going!

Markham residents should build their own zoo instead of visiting the one subsidized by Toronto taxpayers! If you want to visit Centre Island, same deal - take a ferry from Oakville because Toronto taxpayers are sick of subsidizing the ferries and having to wait in line and have seats taken by stinky 905ers on beautiful summer days!
Toronto should get its own collection of Group of 7 paintings!
Toronto needs its own nuclear power plant and waterfalls!
No more provision of Niagara wines to Toronto stores!
905ers no longer allowed to work in Toronto retail outlets!
Toronto stores no longer to be stocked from distribution centres in Vaughan and Brampton!

Yes, this is the recipe for success. It'll sure free up a lot of seats on the subway!

And no garbage permitted to leave Toronto. The Toronto Zoo converted into large landfill/incinerator

 

[crs1026]

I don't agree with the we-they mentality expressed in this thread, but it does seem like there are two camps and there is one difference
- People in Toronto want to live close to where they work and want transit to span the gap
- People in Richmond hill want to live further from where they work and want transit to span the gap

I'm not hearing that either group wants to work in Richmond Hill. For that matter, I'm not hearing that anyone wants work distributed across the GTA. We hear that developers make the best profits in Toronto's downtown, even though it's the scarcest land available. We hear that suburban City Center models from past decades have failed, or at least fallen out of favour.

Seems to me that using subway capacity to turn this around is foolish. If we want to discourage long commutes, we need economic levers. Even distance based transit fares won't suffice. We need a fundamental policy shift that assesses development charges and property taxation and other fees for the Downtown that say, "hey there are good alternatives to being here. We aren't inviting all this development, let alone long commutes". If we don't have the courage or insight to take this approach, then we are admitting we are building a single unified city center for the entire region......in that case, we are opening transit to all comers and we need to welcome RH commuters on Toronto's subways.

I have avoided making a reference to Mr Creosote and the Razor Thin Chocolate Wafer, because that skit is gross - but it seems that the capacity naysayers are inviting the same sort of thing. It's not that I feel more entitled than Richmond Hill, but I don't want a member of my family to be the one maimed in some sort of incident where demand spikes, even for 5 minutes. If it were a member of my family, I wouldn't be writing the event off as "it only happens an hour a day". For that reason (and I will no doubt be told I'm a worry wort, that will never happen) I think the capacity limits have to be respected, and backed away from. Japan seems to have survived with its overcrowding and pusher-people, but that is not a vision I would support for the GTA. Our subways should be that little bit uncrowded. Asking Richmond Hill to wait a bit won't kill people, whereas putting "fairness" ahead of practical realities will. For that reason, I'd side with the delay but let's get the Long Relief line started, in one phase.

Seems to me we need to start building, period.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I get that people are upset about taking on more riders from York Region. But it's totally unfair to hold the ridership inside the 416 between Steeles and Finch, hostage to such machinations. I don't see why the subway can't at least be extended to Steeles. It's a 2km extension one-stop extension for crying out loud. The don't even have to build the Cummer stop. Just rough it in. Get rid of all those YRT and VIVA buses clogging up Yonge and intercept the Steeles buses.

The Yonge Line can't be extended to Steeles because it will presumably exasperate the Yonge capacity crisis. Same reason it can't be extneded into York region.