[justindw]

I think it's fair to say he is not representative of most people here. I think it's also fair to say he's not the only one with this attitude, however.

The bad attitudes really do mostly seem to be on, well, your side (didn't you tell him he could walk so you can have that seat?)

 

[44 North]

Either we're talking past ourselves or you sincerely don't get it. I've said 100 times that obviously plans change.
What you can't bend your head around is that, precisely because of this fact, no one gives a crap about what York Region unofficially has in a 2041 "plan."
Because it's not remotely near reality, because it's not yet in any official plan and because PLANS CHANGE, no one cares about a hypothetical subway loop at Major Mac, except you, particularly in relation to the pros/cons of a subway to RHC.
See?

Guess what's also "not remotely near reality"? YSNE being under construction. It's already approaching ten years late. Could be be another ten before a shovel hits the ground. This seems to be a concept you have trouble grasping.

Seriously? It was just in their map last week!! Jaycola wasn't kidding when he said the same points keep getting made over and over again . Fine - I'll post it again:

Top 10. End of story. Now you've seen it and can move on to the next phase of your life. Congratulations!

LOL, 'tis why I wrote: with the exception of last week's update-turned-reupdate'. But why include that part, right?. It's not the highest priority for Toronto. Read all of TO's transit docs over the last five years, then look at the map posted last week. Y'know, the one that had a grey line north of Finch (until a few clueless politicians whined about mythology)? Sure you can post a week-old map as proof that YNSE construction is imminent, and continue with the 96% = empty rhetoric. But at the end of the day YNSE hasn't started construction, might not for awhile, and TO has a number of priorities requiring addressing before pushing the subway past Steeles.

Anyway, I get all the factors you list - I don't see it as remotely a gamble. I've probably said it before but if someone offered me 5 acres to sit on in Scarborough Centre, Misissauaga Centre, LG/RHC or up in the whitebelt of York Region, I'd take LG/RHC in a second. Centrally located, transit-oriented...it's a potential goldmine. YR's outward expansion is already a known quantity, for the next generation. But it's also not mutually exclusive. Markham wants to keep 60% of its population within the built boundary and they cannot do it without a subway (FINE - or metrorail or possibly-but-doubtfully an LRT; definitely not with RER-only). If you can't intensify on Yonge, particularly on this stretch, you're not going to pull it off on the fringes. And if you're not even going to try on Yonge, there's no point complaining about outward growth as if you did.

(Also, there is very little whitebelt land left; a bit in Markham, a bit in Vaughan and more in East Gwillimbury. Yes, there are some already-approved lands on the fringe that are not developed yet but 69% of York Region is the greenbelt. Its "outward growth" is very finite and constrained.)

YR is doing what the law requires, and more than most - RH, V and Markham are all aiming about the provincial intensification minimum when almost no one else is. You can take advantage of that and milk it or you can go, "Weeellll, it's only the 30th-busiest bus corridor and it's kind of a gamble, I don't really know...."

I don't want to quote Yoda, so I'll just paraphrase that you're either trying to do this intensification-on-transit-corridors thing or you're not. And if you're not doing it here, you're not doing it anywhere else.

Never said it's not an important corridor, never said it's unworthy of vastly improved transit, never said that intensification should be curtailed or stopped. Basically I wrote the exact opposite a thousand times to you, and corrected you with your puerile ad hominems the majority of those times. But unlike you I don't use polarized black-and-white fallacies. And unlike you I seem to grasp the concept of ultra-high per km costs, the concept of funding (and lack thereof), the concept of capacity issues, and the concept that since a subway was the only option explored (and keeps balooning in cost and oupacing inflation) - we could wait a long time to see it. And when we do, it will come at the expense of numerous projects across the region.

Those figures are people and jobs per hectare, which is a fair thing to look at but I would question whether that's a fair comparison when most of these suburban multi-modal hubs projections and growth hinges on transit. So while Peterborough's downtown may have more people and jobs per hectare than RHC in 2011, the upswing on any transit expansion in RHC and other suburban centres is way, waaaaaaaaaaaay more than what these graphics would lead one to believe. I'm not even going to mention the other urban design realities of the existing area that makes this even more obvious.

Also no idea what or where you expect growth to occur in York Region if not in these areas? The greenspace has literally run out. Growth and stuff being built today was already accounted for way back when. Maybe clarify what you mean about "York Region will continue sprawling outward".

Definitely aware, I'll post more maps and data some other time - but a bit afk for awhile. I like discussing these things and am a huge supporter of multimodal hubs and major redevelopments and transit improvements across the province. The takeaway was supposed to show that this can easily be considered a gamble. And if using past history of previous centres, the clear and present problems with LG specifically, the dearth of existing transit usage in YR, the lack of density/land use variety at RHC-LG, and McWynntylinx's track record - I'd say this gamble is a risky one.

But what I really have a problem with - as I've said before to you - is this 'subway or nothing' argument. Or the argument that if you don't support this specific project, then you're anti-transit anti-York Region. Or the argument that 'without a subway, YR has no choice but to sprawl'. It's tiring, illogical, and childish. There are ten thousand ways of increasing population above and beyond what's projected for YR's future without increasing the urban boundary, and without a $700M/km subway.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The bad attitudes really do mostly seem to be on, well, your side (didn't you tell him he could walk so you can have that seat?)

No. I did just make a sarcastic remark about how lame it is he has to drive instead of being able to tough out the crowd on the short ride downtown from Rosedale, though!

Guess what's also "not remotely near reality"? YSNE being under construction. It's already approaching ten years late. Could be be another ten before a shovel hits the ground. This seems to be a concept you have trouble grasping.

Gimme a break.
You know a 2041 plan for a subway is different from an unfunded line with a complete EA.
You know one is a Metrolinx priority and the other one isn't even a York Region priority, right?
Why don't you admit your line is imaginary and irrelevant and we can all move on?

LOL, 'tis why I wrote: with the exception of last week's update-turned-reupdate'. But why include that part, right?.

LOL! you got me.
So, aside from the fact that it's been approved by council and was reiterated as a priority in the most recent conception of Toronto's plans, it's not a priority.
Got it! LOL!

It's not the highest priority for Toronto. Read all of TO's transit docs over the last five years, then look at the map posted last week. Y'know, the one that had a grey line north of Finch (until a few clueless politicians whined about mythology)? Sure you can post a week-old map as proof that YNSE construction is imminent, and continue with the 96% = empty rhetoric. But at the end of the day YNSE hasn't started construction, might not for awhile, and TO has a number of priorities requiring addressing before pushing the subway past Steeles.

More straw men than a cast of Wizard of Oz reunion.
I never said it's their HIGHEST priority. You said - black and white - it's not Top 5 or Top 10. you're demonstrably wrong.
There's not a person here who doesn't know construction hasn't started yet or that Toronto has other priorities.
I guess your next post will be patiently explaining that there are definitely 3 "O"s in "Toronto" despite my insistence there's an "A" somewhere?

Where on earth did I say "construction is imminent?" All I said was that it's in Toronto's 15-year plan. Which, because it is!

Everyone knows it's YR's #1 top priority and not Toronto's #1 priority. I don't care about the grey line. Didn't you hear - PLANS CHANGE!
And this one changed from maybe-not-a-subway to definitey-a-subway. But by all means, keep posting (presumably while riding on your unicorn) about how this extension is on the same level as reality as the Major Mac loop.
Gosh - are you as frustrated as I am?

But unlike you I don't use polarized black-and-white fallacies.

Well, I never!
And yet grey fallacies are the most boring.

And unlike you I seem to grasp the concept of ultra-high per km costs, the concept of funding (and lack thereof), the concept of capacity issues, and the concept that since a subway was the only option explored (and keeps balooning in cost and oupacing inflation) - we could wait a long time to see it. And when we do, it will come at the expense of numerous projects across the region.

Yes, only you know that subways cost more than surface routes.
Only you know that the line is unfunded (even though it's in the thread title).
Only you know about the capacity issues, which have hertofore gone unmentioned by me and everyone else.

the real irony is that the longer it's delayed, the more it costs, the more capacity pressures there are, the more people like you can poke holes in it. Fact remains, it's still a subway in everyone's plans, from Metrolinx to YR to Toronto. Must drive you crazy.

Definitely aware, I'll post more maps and data some other time

A reason to live!

- but a bit afk for awhile.

Oh,dang.

And if using past history of previous centres, the clear and present problems with LG specifically, the dearth of existing transit usage in YR, the lack of density/land use variety at RHC-LG, and McWynntylinx's track record - I'd say this gamble is a risky one.

Aren't all gambles risky? Isn't that what it means?
Other centres were planned in different eras, under different regimes, in different real estate markets. Those centres were planned without Places to Grow, without Metrolinx, without $1M houses dominating the market in Toronto...One could go on - but it would just be exposing a black and white fallacy.

But what I really have a problem with - as I've said before to you - is this 'subway or nothing' argument. Or the argument that if you don't support this specific project, then you're anti-transit anti-York Region. Or the argument that 'without a subway, YR has no choice but to sprawl'. It's tiring, illogical, and childish. There are ten thousand ways of increasing population above and beyond what's projected for YR's future without increasing the urban boundary, and without a $700M/km subway.

Except I've said before, multiple times, I don't object to an LRT, I just think it's not the best choice. Go back a few pages because I'm bored repeating it.
But if that's what you really have a problem with, we don't have a problem!! Let's try to reduce the number of things we disagree about; you might be surprised! For example:

I don't think you are anti-transit or anti-YR, believe it or not. Other people, yes.

There is a dearth of transit use in YR (at least relative to Toronto; not surprising since it's a suburb) but that's hardly the case in the Yonge corridor relevant to these discussions. If they propose a subway in Georgina, I'm with you all the way.

I didn't say "YR has no choice but to sprawl." I said that the population is growing and if you don't accommodate them close to transit, you'll accommodate them on greenbelt lands. That seems obvious. There's a direct connection, obviously. It's stretching logic to criticize York Region for doing both things.

If you want me to agree that Vaughan opening whitebelt lands undermines VMC, you have no choice but to agree that NOT opening them encourages more people to live in the growth centre, don't you? Isn't that your argument? Haven't you made that connection, overtly and repeatedly, all on your own?

Yes, they have chosen to open new whitebelt lands in Vaughan. But they've also chosen to open hardly any in Markham, contingent on there being a subway. (And not an LRT and not Metrorail - a subway. Period.) I don't care if you want to give them an LRT instead, but then understand they will change the plans (BECAUSE PLANS CHANGE!) and they will open more whitebelt lands. That's how it works.

You might think there are 10,000 ways around that logic but you're not on council or staff to propose them (far as I know). Markham was presented with 3 of those 10,000 options and they chose 1. It's the one with the subway.

 

[Klieg]

Perhaps the Silver City at RHC could offer free popcorn to riders coming up from the 416 as a gesture of good will.

 

[Johnny Au]

Toronto residents barred from shopping at Pacific Mall.

Markham residents barred from shopping at Splendid China Tower across Steeles Avenue.

How else can the good residents of Toronto get their hands on Japanese plush toys?

 

[Palma]

Perhaps the Silver City at RHC could offer free popcorn to riders coming up from the 416 as a gesture of good will.

I can't believe now Markham wants a subway too. Well have them build it in their municipality so their residents can get around. How is Toronto stopping them from doing that?

I also drove along Finch today from Beacroft to Bayview. All I saw were detached houses or townhouses (not sure if stacked but they looked traditional freehold) on Finch. One bus was coming west so i made sure to look since it would have been going to Finch subway and it was empty except for a few people and it was 440pm. And people are calling for a Subway along Finch! Just like when I travel west on Sheppard to wilson heights during AM and PM rush hour, hardly ever see a bus, don't see people at bus stops except 1 bus stop in the AM (forget which one now) and cars just zooming by. And there are people calling for subway from Sheppard to Downsvew on Spadina. Now to tell you the truth, if the Spadina extension had not happened I would have been for a Sheppard to downsview subway or even for a Finch subway from Yonge over to Dufferin and then connect to Downsview. This would have at least stopped this subway extension business into York and if nothing else forced a transfer at Finch for people travelling from York

 

[W. K. Lis]

How dare they use the abandoned railroad right-of-way in Algonquin Park for a bicycle trail. It could be used for a subway!!

 

[BMO]

I can't believe now Markham wants a subway too. Well have them build it in their municipality so their residents can get around. How is Toronto stopping them from doing that?

I also drove along Finch today from Beacroft to Bayview. All I saw were detached houses or townhouses (not sure if stacked but they looked traditional freehold) on Finch. One bus was coming west so i made sure to look since it would have been going to Finch subway and it was empty except for a few people and it was 440pm. And people are calling for a Subway along Finch! Just like when I travel west on Sheppard to wilson heights during AM and PM rush hour, hardly ever see a bus, don't see people at bus stops except 1 bus stop in the AM (forget which one now) and cars just zooming by. And there are people calling for subway from Sheppard to Downsvew on Spadina. Now to tell you the truth, if the Spadina extension had not happened I would have been for a Sheppard to downsview subway or even for a Finch subway from Yonge over to Dufferin and then connect to Downsview. This would have at least stopped this subway extension business into York and if nothing else forced a transfer at Finch for people travelling from York

I saw an empty bus along Yonge st at Eglinton once. I'm pretty sure that's all the evidence I need to stop a DRL.

 

[salsa]

I can't believe now Markham wants a subway too. Well have them build it in their municipality so their residents can get around. How is Toronto stopping them from doing that?

Where did you find out that Markham wants a subway? TJ Pootie would be very interested to hear more about this new development.

 

[salsa]

I also drove along Finch today from Beacroft to Bayview. All I saw were detached houses or townhouses (not sure if stacked but they looked traditional freehold) on Finch. One bus was coming west so i made sure to look since it would have been going to Finch subway and it was empty except for a few people and it was 440pm. And people are calling for a Subway along Finch! Just like when I travel west on Sheppard to wilson heights during AM and PM rush hour, hardly ever see a bus, don't see people at bus stops except 1 bus stop in the AM (forget which one now) and cars just zooming by. And there are people calling for subway from Sheppard to Downsvew on Spadina.

As a frequent user of both the Finch and Sheppard buses, I fully reject your false suggestions that these routes are not heavily used. It doesn't mean that a subway makes any sense, but often times the buses are so packed that some people are unable to get on the bus.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Where did you find out that Markham wants a subway? TJ Pootie would be very interested to know.

Markham too?! Markham AND York Region. Stunning news. Who doesn't want a subway?

 

[BMO]

As a frequent user of both the Finch and Sheppard buses, I fully reject your false suggestions that these routes are not heavily used. It doesn't mean that a subway makes any sense, but often times the buses are so packed that some people are unable to get on the bus.

sometimes? Try transferring from the Subway to a bus at Finch on the 60 or 53 during the evening peak hour and tell me that isn't one of the seven levels of hell. I've seen more jabs thrown fighting to get onto a bus at Finch than you see during a boxing match.

 

[innsertnamehere]

In case you guys forgot, the Yonge subway extension goes through Markham and Vaughan. So they will get one!

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

In case you guys forgot, the Yonge subway extension goes through Markham and Vaughan. So they will get one!

It's actually kind of amusing it keeps getting billed as the "subway to Richmond Hill. " . It's true it goes maybe 100m into RH but it's more significant for Markham and important (albeit less so) for Vaughan. I think the people who never go north of Bloor imagine it going to farms on the Oak Ridges Moraine or something.

Busiest Stations (Estimated passenger trips to and from trains daily)

• Bloor (Yonge-University-Spadina) ... 211,300
• Yonge (Bloor-Danforth) ... 190,000
• St George (Bloor-Danforth) ... 128,900
• St George (Yonge-University-Spadina) ... 126,000
• Union ... 114,800
• Finch ... 97,500

Pfft, not even 100k! See, people up there don't take no transit!

As BMO says, those buses are brutal at rush hour. People might not realize the density of routes on those streets. They've been brutal for 20 years too.

 

[TOareaFan]

Wall of Steeles

The Steeles Curtain!