[salsa]

John Tory threatens to block this subway extension unless funding for relief line is secured:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ion-unless-province-pays-for-relief-line.html

Transit projects various levels of gov't have funded before the relief line:

- Spadina Subway Extension
- Eglinton Crosstown
- Scarborough Subway Extension
- Sheppard East LRT
- Finch West LRT
- Regional Express Rail
- SmartTrack


Just saying. And I finally agree with Tory on something.

 

[salsa]

Del Duca response: "Mayor Tory just can't take yes for an answer".

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Stop repeating this. It's a lie. $5 billion is the top end of the range of confidence for the SSE's price.

A cost projection is not a LIE so let's watch our terminology, friend.

Whether it's $4b or 5 or 6,the point is Tory has not been fazed by each new study showing a higher cost and lower ridership. I could equally have thrown out the money for the Gardiner as evidence of his very inconsistent transit "logic." I know it's my actually $5b, because no one knows how much it is but this isn't a court of law. It was a hyperbolic point, not citing a historical fact.

Also, please don't tell me to stop lying again, or I might take offence.

Yonge should stop at Steeles to relieve Yonge street.

The street or the subway? The logic really works either way,such as it is. But tell me the truth, do your ears hurt from you banging that drum so loudly and pointlessly? What are you adding, putting that on record for the 20th time?

Even Tory didn't say "but we think going to steeles makes sense." It's my happening. They're as likely to stop in Narnia as at Steeles. Let it go.

(reading it again, do you mean the DRL? That's not happening in our lifetimes. If they can get it to Sheppard by 2050 I'll be impressed. And wasn't ST supposed to be picking up those eastern suburban riders? No?)

And you're simplifying the point Metrolinx makes but at least it's a reminder that while Toronto has wasted a decade on parochial transit "planning" that someone has actually been doing real studies of how the larger network functions on their behalf.

For a page or two there we were dealing with objective reality...

 

[amnesiajune]

A cost projection is not a LIE so let's watch our terminology, friend.

The cost projection is $3.35 billion. 5 billion and 3.35 billion are not the same number.

I know it's my actually $5b, because no one knows how much it is but this isn't a court of law. It was a hyperbolic point, not citing a historical fact.

So why not make "hyperbolic points" about the DRL, and call it a $10 billion subway using the same logic?

 

[amnesiajune]

After the road tolls debacle, it's hard to say what authority Tory has on regional transportation matters when the province can make any decision it wants to please 905 voters. Still, it would be blatantly irresponsible to keep expanding the Yonge portion of Line 1 without addressing the overcrowding at Bloor Station. Toronto needs to stand firm on this matter. The DRL is no vanity project, political vote-buying exercise, or distant need. It is absolutely necessary for a functional transportation system for the region.

The province can't (within reason) force the TTC's hand on this. But what they can do is refuse to fund projects, and this is all political posturing in anticipation of big funding announcements. As far as Toronto is concerned, the Yonge extension doesn't matter but getting external DRL funding is extremely important. As far as the provincial government is concerned, both projects are of equal importance. The final product will likely be something in the middle, where both projects get built and the provincial government contributes most of the funding.

 

[micheal_can]

The province can't (within reason) force the TTC's hand on this. But what they can do is refuse to fund projects, and this is all political posturing in anticipation of big funding announcements. As far as Toronto is concerned, the Yonge extension doesn't matter but getting external DRL funding is extremely important. As far as the provincial government is concerned, both projects are of equal importance. The final product will likely be something in the middle, where both projects get built and the provincial government contributes most of the funding.

Transit planning needs to be left up to the cities. The other levels of government should be contributing money, but not limiting the city to certain projects.

 

[amnesiajune]

Transit planning needs to be left up to the cities.

I'd say the complete opposite. Transit planning needs to be done regionally. City-based transit planning is why Toronto is such a mess and so many people are car-dependant. The vast majority of employed people in the GTA don't work in the same city that they live in, and our transit system (by virtue of being planned within imaginary lines) is normally useless to those people.

 

[raptor]

Transit planning needs to be left up to the cities. The other levels of government should be contributing money, but not limiting the city to certain projects.

Especially on glorious 1 stop subways that make complete sense. Province should just shut up and pay up.

 

[micheal_can]

Especially on glorious 1 stop subways that make complete sense. Province should just shut up and pay up.

Which was originally a 3 stop...

 

[muller877]

Transit planning needs to be left up to the cities. The other levels of government should be contributing money, but not limiting the city to certain projects.

Why would anyone give money without strings attached? Even when I was a kid I only got allowance if I did my chores.

If a city wants 100% control they need to pay for 100% of the project.

 

[junctionist]

The province can't (within reason) force the TTC's hand on this. But what they can do is refuse to fund projects, and this is all political posturing in anticipation of big funding announcements. As far as Toronto is concerned, the Yonge extension doesn't matter but getting external DRL funding is extremely important. As far as the provincial government is concerned, both projects are of equal importance. The final product will likely be something in the middle, where both projects get built and the provincial government contributes most of the funding.

Under our constitution, cities get their powers of governance from the province. It's up to the province to decide what kinds of decisions it'll allow its cities to make. The only risk in forcing the TTC's hand would be alienating the city's political support base. It may be a calculated risk to take for a provincial party banking its political success on a rural and suburban support base.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The cost projection is $3.35 billion. 5 billion and 3.35 billion are not the same number.
So why not make "hyperbolic points" about the DRL, and call it a $10 billion subway using the same logic?

The point - again - was about Tory's willingness to spend, effectively, whatever it costs on the subway in Scarborough, regardless of how cost-effective it is or isn't (and also, that he lied about ST being a substitute for the DRL). I think we all know the narrative there so I won't rehash it and I am aware that the SSE is not $5B, just as I know it's not a "kajillion dollars," which if I'd said it might have made my point more effectively and understandable to you.

The DRL probably will be $10B, before all is said and done. We're very early in the planning stages and it's up around $7B for the minimum option, right? That means going up to Sheppard must be $15-$20B, to say nothing of Cobra's random notion of going all the way to Steeles. And once we're talking that much money (to combine what I said and Del Duca said), Toronto is eyeing a budget freeze so it might as well be a kajillion-dollar project.

And they're still all just projections. So this line has gone up from less than $3B to over $5B. But how much of that cost is simply due to nearly a decade of not-building while inflation and construction costs rise? And when are the shovels going in the ground for the DRL? How much will it cost in 2020 (if you're lucky!), even if all the costs don't spiral, like they did on the Vaughan line?

So, you apologize for saying I was LYING - which I don't do and have not done in this board - and I'll try, from now on, to either say $3.56B is the SSE cost (as best anyone can guess today) and use more obvious hyperbole (bazillion, kajillion etc.) when making rhetorical points.

Transit planning needs to be left up to the cities. The other levels of government should be contributing money, but not limiting the city to certain projects.

Not that the province is always right but I don't know how anyone who lives within Internet distance of Toronto watches what goes on and thinks, "Yes, municipal councils need absolute planning authority for transit."

It's not for upper levels of government to contribute to parochial pipe dreams regardless of their contribution to regional goals in terms of planning and transportation.

 

[raptor]

How come no one dares to ask Tory to implement a property tax increase dedicated to the RL, similar to the one for Scarborough subway?

 

[Leo_Chan]

I both love and hate how the SSE and DRL gets talked about in so many transit expansion threads. It shows that they are very controversial topics, but it's getting a bit repetitive.

Why can't there be a specific thread about "arguing" on priorities while specific threads focus on the details and plans on the subject. A consolidated place for "toxicity" is better than the whole forum being toxic (for the most part).

 

[raptor]

I both love and hate how the SSE and DRL gets talked about in so many transit expansion threads. It shows that they are very controversial topics, but it's getting a bit repetitive.

Why can't there be a specific thread about "arguing" on priorities while specific threads focus on the details and plans on the subject. A consolidated place for "toxicity" is better than the whole forum being toxic (for the most part).

Because we could use those $3.35 billion towards some real priorities.