[44 North]

Unless you have inside info (and I suspect you don't) this is totally your personal spin on internal discussions to which you were not privy, right? I'm guessing you can't back up any of this "begrudging" or "lukewarm" stuff based on knowledge of the people or process.

In 2014 (i.e after the Big Move update and well into the City's DRTES) Pritchard cautioned Toronto that it "shouldn't get ahead of ourselves" or "seize on one solution". That a RL "involves potentially subway" and "involves buses". In other words after taking years to acknowledge the importance and actual necessity of the line, and including it in the RTP, they still tried to weasel out of making a subway official. This from the agency that greenlights subways elsewhere at the drop of a hat.

As for the roughshod comment - how can you know so many little things and so little understand how government and planning work?

In 2015 while the City's DRTES was practically finalized, Metrolinx released a new YRNS report that carried-forward unworkable and backward things such as a Front Street tram relief line, and a surface line that bypassed Don Mills and completely bypassed Thorncliffe - a priority neighbourhood of tens of thousands. In other words they still hadn't accepted an RL and were presenting ideas that ran roughshod over the City's past plans like DMLRT, their own RTP, current RL plans, and TO's general transit-building criteria. And Metrolinx didn't "finish" YRNS. They seemingly dropped it when less than a year ago the Prov decided to come to the table and aid the City's plans.

As you've told me and this thread many times, what happens outside Toronto is not Toronto's problem. But it IS Metrolinx's.

I never wrote that, ditto for many of the other untrue things you manically try to namedrop me into.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

In 2014 (i.e after the Big Move update and well into the City's DRTES) Pritchard cautioned Toronto that it "shouldn't get ahead of ourselves" or "seize on one solution". That a RL "involves potentially subway" and "involves buses".

Metrolinx doesn't dictate municipal projects. You're only right in that their RL study didn't presume a subway so much as it started from a Yonge-Bloor capacity crunch and looked at the various things coming online (RER, ATO, TYSSE) and what further solutions were needed, subway or otherwise. I'd have thought that kind of "let's not pre-determine an outcome, especially when it comes to mode," would be precisely up your alley!

Prichard's his own kind of problem (and nor am I saying Metrolinx is blameless in all of this) but in 2014, so at the same time, Tory was out there saying Chow's DRL wasn't the solution: SmartTrack was. He said it would be built faster, cost less and relieve the Yonge line. I doubt anyone here bought that line but he sold it so I'm not inclined to blame Metrolinx which (for better and worse) has been acceding to Toronto's transit plans., nor to applaud Tory for his newfound DRL orthodoxy.

Despite that Prichard quote, I can't think of a single instance where Toronto asked for something - TC, DRL, SSE etc. - and Metrolinx in anyway shot them down. They kept their mouths largley shut on SSE, in particular, until their political masters saw the win in backing the change.

You're implying they have actively fought against the DRL or otherwise stymied Toronto's efforts to put it atop the priority list and there's simply no evidence of that.

In the meantime, it's a good thing Metrolinx took a broader approach and even better it resulted in the to-Sheppard idea, though who knows if that will ever happen. At least they've still been doing the big-picture thinking. (I mean - that you used the phrase "Toronto's transit-building criteria," with what I presume is a straight face blows my mind.)

And Metrolinx didn't "finish" YRNS. They seemingly dropped it when less than a year ago the Prov decided to come to the table and aid the City's plans.

Which proves my point - they try to do their job but every time Toronto blows its nose, cabinet orders them to go wipe it. Toronto didn't want the DRL, Metrolinx didn't push it. Toronto did want it, Metrolinx put it on the list.

And I'll apologize - cuz that's how I do - if I attributed that attitude to you incorrectly. It's certainly prevalent here.

Man, the both of us are dropping lots of acronyms...

Anyway, to conclude on-topic: Quibbles about phasing aside, I've always agreed DRL and YNSE should be linked. But I'm not impressed by Tory's hypocritical grandstanding on it.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I was looking up something totally different on Markham's website and, right there on the front page, is their response to Tory. Always fun, transit planning in the GTA...

Contentwise, nothing earth-shaking though I thought the part I put in bold - their optimism about federal funding - is interesting. don't see anything similar from RH, Vaughan or YR but who doesn't like a good fight?

It's pasted below but I also decided then to poke around and I found the committee report from last month on Langstaff status. Interesting hilights:

* Creek rehab (as previously mentioned) starting in June
* First phase master plan coming in spring, eyeing a 745-unit apartment building
* In the long term the development is supposed to ramp up over the decked CN tracks but for now they want an underpass plus figure out a second rail crossing

Some other interesting tidbits too but, alas, not the presentations the developeres gave on the evolving plans. Still, stuff is happening.

Yonge North Subway Extension from Finch Avenue to Highway 7 is needed today for underserved transit riders

MARKHAM, ON - May 10, 2017- Markham Mayor Frank Scarpitti has dismissed Mayor John Tory’s contention that the planning and design work for the Yonge North Subway Extension cannot proceed until the Toronto Downtown Relief Line is well advanced. While both projects are priorities for an integrated transit system across the GTA, one project is not dependent on the other.

The 2015 Metrolinx Yonge Relief Network Study (YRNS) found that while growth will add new riders, significant relief to the Yonge subway line will be achieved through already committed transit improvements, including the TTC’s automatic train control and new subway trains, Toronto-York Spadina extensions, and the GO Regional Express Rail. The YRNS concluded that the Relief Line is a long term project that will not be needed immediately. Nevertheless, direction was given to continue project planning and development on both the Toronto Downtown Relief Line and the Yonge North Subway Extension.

The Yonge North Subway Extension to Highway 7 is the top transit priority for York Region and the City of Markham, and the required Environmental Assessment has already been completed. The Province of Ontario has approved $55 million in funding for preliminary engineering. York Region has also applied for funding as part of the Phase 1 Federal Public Transit Infrastructure Fund, and is expecting the federal government to support this important project.

Transit riders are underserved along the Yonge Street corridor. Twenty thousand bus passengers travel along this stretch of Yonge Street daily. Another 10,000 people are left behind in gridlock because of inadequate and inefficient transit service.

Over the past 12 years, Toronto has received $21.7billion from the Provincial and Federal governments for transit. By comparison, York Region has received under $2.7 billion even though York Region is Canada’s high tech capital and home to two of the GTA’s four employment ‘Megazones’.

The City of Toronto Staff have prepared a thorough, well researched report which concludes that planning and design for both the Toronto Downtown Relief Line and the Yonge North Subway Extension should proceed.

Quotes
“The need for businesses and residents to have access to good public transit, jobs and greater housing options is fundamental to ensuring that the Greater Toronto Region economy remains resilient,” said Mayor Frank Scarpitti. “The Yonge North Subway Extension is a critical part of the regional transportation plan, and to stop the work underway would be shortsighted and irresponsible.”

“This is the most justifiable subway construction in recent history,” said Mayor Frank Scarpitti speaking of the Yonge North Subway Extension. “There are 20,000 people jammed into buses going down Yonge Street every day. York Region is the fastest growing region in Canada so municipalities need to be interconnected now more than ever. With significant funding in new infrastructure investment over the next decade, the need to make forward thinking infrastructure investments has never been greater.”

 

[Tuck]

As far as "planning and design" is concerned, theres nothing wrong with Yonge North being done alongside the relief line. Ideally they will be approved and built concurrently, then there won't be an issue.

Tory IS right though, Yonge north can't proceed before the relief line. In fact, I'm pretty pleasantly surprised at how Tory has come around on the relief line. He's responsible for Toronto, and Toronto is the one with the overloaded subway system, so in this case I'd say he's mostly in the right. I think his fear is that only one will get funded - a reasonable fear - and that will be Yonge north because its in a more voter-rich area for the liberals.

“This is the most justifiable subway construction in recent history,” said Mayor Frank Scarpitti speaking of the Yonge North Subway Extension. ”

No.

 

[amnesiajune]

I think his fear is that only one will get funded - a reasonable fear - and that will be Yonge north because its in a more voter-rich area for the liberals.

He doesn't have any reason for that, because the city can simply say "No" to the provincial government, and the province's only realistic way around that would be to take over the public transit system, which they obviously won't do.

Politics is a chess game. The city is focusing on the Relief Line because the provincial government is focusing on Yonge North, and the provincial government is focusing on Yonge North because the city is focusing on the Relief Line, and they're both doing this because their preferred transit projects can't happen without the other's consent - for the province, building Yonge North without the city's agreement would be political suicide, and for the city, building the DRL without provincial funding would be political suicide.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Just a random question, is the Yonge North Subway Extension a higher priority (and more demanded) than the Bloor-Danforth West Extension to Mississauga/Square One? I would assume it would be considering it is a corridor and already has the (enough) ridership.

 

[amnesiajune]

Just a random question, is the Yonge North Subway Extension a higher priority (and more demanded) than the Bloor-Danforth West Extension to Mississauga/Square One?

Yes. Yonge North also has a higher ridership projection than the city's proposed Relief Line.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Tory IS right though, Yonge north can't proceed before the relief line. In fact, I'm pretty pleasantly surprised at how Tory has come around on the relief line. He's
“This is the most justifiable subway construction in recent history,” said Mayor Frank Scarpitti speaking of the Yonge North Subway Extension. ”

No.

that's some heavy-duty formatting but where would you rank it, then? Lower than #2?

Anyway, the man's just doing his job and he's being more honest about the importance of the YNSE than Tory was about SmartTrack. From his perspective, don't forget, the DRL didn't exist until they finished the EA for the YNSE. No one in Toronto, at any serious level, was talking about the capacity constraints at Bloor-Yonge or digging the DRL out of the old files, until that point. So I don't blame the Mayor of Markham for saying, "Gee, how convenient that NOW the DRL is your #1 priority, after not having it on the books at all, then saying it was the hugest thing once our subway extension was ready to go, then scrapping your entire LRT network while still not moving up the DRL, then saving part of it, scrapping it again, saving it again and then turning part of it into a subway and then devising some cockamamie add-on to RER and then the subway again. Yeah, obviously DRL is real important to y'all."

Has Tory come around on the Relief Line the same way he "came around" on the Scarborough subway or is he just doing what he always does, which is say what he thinks people want to hear him say? Let's forget the 905 and ask someone from Toronto if this is totally out of left field:

And to further answer Leo_Chan's question (and to further support Scarpitti) let's not forget it was the province who initiated the subway process and has kept it atop the priority list dating back to 2007. I've never dismissed the legit concerns about the downstream impacts but it's necessity, utility and justification haven't budged.

 

[amnesiajune]

And to further answer Leo_Chan's question (and to further support Scarpitti) let's not forget it was the province who initiated the subway process and has kept it atop the priority list dating back to 2007.

It wasn't anywhere on the city's priority list either - look at Transit City. And in all fairness, why would it be? The Yonge subway had lower peak hour ridership in 2010 than it did in 1988. It wasn't until a few years ago that the line hit its capacity.

 

[minilude]

Is the ridership peaking because of the boom of employment nodes such as Yonge/Sheppard, Yonge/Eglinton, Yonge/Bloor?

The entire condo boom of Toronto was just in recent years..

 

[Palma]

And whose fault is it that the DRL is not further down the line?
It's not because of a single person in York Region, nor anyone at Metrolinx or MTO or the provincial government.
Three-word answer:
Toronto
City
Council

We did need it at least a decade ago. They didn't see it. They wasted years changing their minds. They wasted money on inefficient, expensive projects,including 2 Tory has taken the lead on. So as much as I agree on the DRL, and did before this extension was in the air, I have zero sympathy for his hypocritical position.

If your team members want an easy commute, they can get a condo within walking distance of Scarborough Town Centre, otherwise the current city government doesn't much care. Or, per what Jaycola said, we can pretend not building the extension doesn't mean more people on roads which are themselves over capacity at rush hour.

This isn't about one project and what it will or won't do to the network, it's about how decades of mismanagement and lack of investment create spiralling problems. And how they get worse when you don't learn from those mistakes.

I mean...


... Have you been paying any attention? Is that what he's showed with SmartTrack? With SSE? With TCHC? With the Gardiner?

No, the problem isn't York Region wanting a subway. It's that Toronto is so bad "providing more and better service to Torontonians within the city," that it is literally incapable of building transit lines that will generate the greatest ridership and growth.

of course I HAVE B EEN PAYING ATTENTION. He seems to be acting more like a provincial politician instead of a politician dedicated to Toronto needs.

 

[Palma]

As far as "planning and design" is concerned, theres nothing wrong with Yonge North being done alongside the relief line. Ideally they will be approved and built concurrently, then there won't be an issue.

Tory IS right though, Yonge north can't proceed before the relief line. In fact, I'm pretty pleasantly surprised at how Tory has come around on the relief line. He's responsible for Toronto, and Toronto is the one with the overloaded subway system, so in this case I'd say he's mostly in the right. I think his fear is that only one will get funded - a reasonable fear - and that will be Yonge north because its in a more voter-rich area for the liberals.

“This is the most justifiable subway construction in recent history,” said Mayor Frank Scarpitti speaking of the Yonge North Subway Extension. ”

No.

so the city and TTC can say no. They cannot force the TTC to extend. I do not understand this, This is why transit in Toronto should not be uploaded provincially cause all decisions will be made based on interests of those outside Toronto and to win their votes

 

[pman]

so the city and TTC can say no. They cannot force the TTC to extend. I do not understand this, This is why transit in Toronto should not be uploaded provincially cause all decisions will be made based on interests of those outside Toronto and to win their votes

On the other hand, surely it's beyond debate that Toronto's mayor and council are completely incapable of properly planning or managing transit, based only on the criterion of the interests of 416 residents. TNSW seems to do a pretty good job in Sydney and they're a state agency with no municipal oversight. Could uploading really be any worse than the farce that passes for planning in Toronto?

 

[Leo_Chan]

On the other hand, surely it's beyond debate that Toronto's mayor and council are completely incapable of properly planning or managing transit, based only on the criterion of the interests of 416 residents. TNSW seems to do a pretty good job in Sydney and they're a state agency with no municipal oversight. Could uploading really be any worse than the farce that passes for planning in Toronto?

At some point, building something, even with all the terrible consequences it brings, is better than not building anything. Even if there's no capacity for expansion, some unnecessary expansion overloading the system is still better than no expansion. That's what I think, but feel free to oppose.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

On the other hand, surely it's beyond debate that Toronto's mayor and council are completely incapable of properly planning or managing transit, based only on the criterion of the interests of 416 residents. TNSW seems to do a pretty good job in Sydney and they're a state agency with no municipal oversight. Could uploading really be any worse than the farce that passes for planning in Toronto?

No.

It's a topic that's much broader but "uploading" only works if there is fair funding, fair subsidization and fair governance. We're not close on any of em.

I've stated my position before, probably a few times, but it boils down to:
-YNSE is further along so get it moving with the understanding the DRL is coming right behind. Presumably it could start construction within a couple of years so construction is proceeding accordingly. There is no reason to assume the extension would overwhelm the system on Day One but rather redistribute all the people now converging at Finch. The DRL would then come online before any major new density caused or facilitated by the subway. Either way, as much as I believe in the need for the DRL, I've lost sufficient faith in Toronto City Council that I'm not interested in waiting for them to figure it out.

That's what I think but feel free to oppose me too, again