[Midtown Urbanist]

I don't like how Tory didn't push harder. Relief Line isn't enough. It has to be a combo of YNSE AND Relief Long

100% agree with this post.

YNSE does not make the Relief Line necessary. Relief Line is needed period. What YNSE does is necessitate Relief Line Long.

 

[OneCity]

100% agree with this post.

YNSE does not make the Relief Line necessary. Relief Line is needed period. What YNSE does is necessitate Relief Line Long.

But there is also a reality of Provincial politics and the unfortunate lack of structure on how transit is currently funded. This wont change anytime soon and the money is required ASAP. So I disagree with the statement Tory is not doing enough? The guy is basically calling out the Province for funding head on? All Provincial parties need to win an election and Toronto is far the only area of interest. If anything the core of Toronto has been its own enemy on this topic as it has been normally Left learning meaning they Liberals have seen little gain in making the DRL a priority as they need to sway votes elsewhere.

We have also had much weaker Political leadership Municipally until now in regards to pressuring upper levels for the DRL funds and we just need to get the short funded and then keep pressuring for funding, a plan and accept the fact the City needs to make strategic partnerships and work with others if we want the Provincial full support.

I do agree there is only proper "relief" benefit if we build the DRL long, I just don't see how crying "priority", and playing "Me, Me, Me," politics with the Province works without forming strategic partnerships with other Municipalities and other areas of the City in this climate? The Politics of fighting for a transfer plan in Scarborough has also seen to have reverse consequences both in the design and cost, working with other areas within the Province and City is a Political reality if we are going to actually see this line gain momentum here.

Any Politician that thinks going alone against the Province is a good strategy is only hurting their own constituents. Sure the DRL could and should be acknowledged as a "priority" but if these Politicians don't understand we have to grow together with the other areas than they are in for more Political turmoil and much of the same results in terms of funding help. After seeing how uncompromising some Toronto Politicians have been on the Scarborough transit debate I wouldn't hold out hope for them working with the 905. If they cant work with others than they are the ones not doing enough.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I do agree there is only proper "relief" benefit if we build the DRL long, I just don't see how crying "priority", and playing "Me, Me, Me," politics with the Province works without forming strategic partnerships with other Municipalities and other areas of the City in this climate? The Politics of fighting for a transfer plan in Scarborough has also seen to have reverse consequences both in the design and cost, working with other areas within the Province and City is a Political reality if we are going to actually see this line gain momentum here.

On the positive, I don't doubt North York politicians will be effective in lobbying the extension to Don Mills Station.

 

[OneCity]

On the positive, I don't doubt North York politicians will be effective in lobbying the extension to Don Mills Station.

Exactly. This is very positive.

The more voices we have working together the better. The Province will have nowhere to hide if the inner an outer suburbs of Toronto are working cohesively with the core of the City. No suburb wants to get into a battle over "priority" and have to delay matters further on their own end and if the City continues to build these alliances by helping with the growth plans of other areas the Province has nowhere to run as plan 1B wont happen with out 1A.

This is a huge opportunity with the Provincial election and the Liberals on the ropes. To secure the York region voters they have to work with the core needs of Toronto. That's very positive. If the core Politicians can learn to work with the Scarborough voter and help improve the subway(s) it will also do wonders to alleviate any further internal chaos. This could certaibly become a problem for the DRL long should we continue the ridiculous debate to nowhere or worse a single stop subway is built. (Even Tory voted for the Lawrence stop)

I get people want it all now and it is unfair to be ignored. But the approach this admin is taking to actually move forward is the only realistic approach to achieve real progress Politically. Any me first Politics in solitude will continue to be mildly attended to by the Province and will be even less effective at the Provincial level than we see Municipally outside of securing individual ridings. And the DRL needs Provincial support more than anything right now.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't like how Tory didn't push harder. Relief Line isn't enough. It has to be a combo of YNSE AND Relief Long

I don't get why Tory's gets blamed for not pushing the DRL harder when Ford and Miller were worse. People forget that when Transit City was first pitched, the whole plan was supposed to be $6 billion:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto-unveils-6-billion-transit-plan/article1072048/

The province signed on. And by the time it got put into MoveOntario 2020, the total bill was $18 billion. And now we have just central Eglinton coming at $5 billion, making that MO2020 estimate out of date. If you add in Eglinton East and Eglinton West, the Airport-Eglinton-Morningside corridor alone will probably be in the $9-$10 billion range. Finch West is $1 billion (in 2010 dollars).

Imagine if they had spent $6 billion on the DRL. Or budgeted $18 billion for DRL Long. Yet, St. Miller gets excused from any blame on these forums, while it's clear that him and McGuinty made an active policy choice of prioritizing Eglinton, Finch, Sheppard and the SRT over the DRL.

 

[syn]

Miller doesn't get excused - there's simply an acknowledgement that Transit City addressed transit needs in high priority areas around the city.

Tory's approach is to ignore the experts and focus on whatever will get him more votes.

This particular line should be the lowest of priorities, but unfortunately the city doesn't appear to have much say.

 

[amnesiajune]

This particular line should be the lowest of priorities, but unfortunately the city doesn't appear to have much say.

The city owns the TTC. If they want to dictate what transit gets built they're free to do so. The problem is that the city doesn't want to deal with the political challenge of paying for transit - you can't expect the provincial and federal government to throw money at the city without getting any say in how the money is spent.

 

[syn]

The city owns the TTC. If they want to dictate what transit gets built they're free to do so. The problem is that the city doesn't want to deal with the political challenge of paying for transit - you can't expect the provincial and federal government to throw money at the city without getting any say in how the money is spent.

Right - so as far as this particular extension is concerned, the city doesn't have much of a say if the upper levels of government decide they want to fund it.

Can the city fund it's own expansion? The revenue tools available probably won't be enough - and I agree the political consequences of implementing some of them will scare politicians away, for fear of being seen as 'punishing' any particular group.

 

[amnesiajune]

Right - so as far as this particular extension is concerned, the city doesn't have much of a say if the upper levels of government decide they want to fund it.

Sure they do - the TTC has every right to say "no", and the province doesn't have any feasible recourse. But then when the TTC goes to Queen's Park and asks for funding for its $10+ billion Don Mills subway line to Sheppard, they're likely to get a similar answer.

Can the city fund it's own expansion? The revenue tools available probably won't be enough

Sure they can. The city's $900 million contribution to the Scarborough Subway Extension is being funded by a 0.0024% residential property tax and slightly higher commercial & industrial taxes.. That works out to $2/month on a home worth one million dollars. The city could raise plenty of money for transit if they're willing to make people pay $30-40/month in additional taxes, and once the shovels are in the ground future governments would be bound to keeping the tax or replacing it with some new revenue source.

 

[Tuck]

I don't like how Tory didn't push harder. Relief Line isn't enough. It has to be a combo of YNSE AND Relief Long

I don't think its feasible to expect a DRL Long funding commitment in one go. Thats a BIG price tag. But maybe I'm just cynical.

Also, he didn't push harder because he spent all that time on that smart track nonsense.

 

[Hopkins123]

I don't think its feasible to expect a DRL Long funding commitment in one go. Thats a BIG price tag. But maybe I'm just cynical.

Also, he didn't push harder because he spent all that time on that smart track nonsense.

You shouldn't make excuses for poor planning. The full 19 kilometres of Eglinton Crosstown from Weston to Kennedy was funded all at once. It's very reasonable to expect that DRL Long could be funded in one go, as well. The backlog and high priority need to alleviate Bloor-Yonge should mean that funding ought to be secured by the 2018 Provincial and 2019 Federal elections with all-party support.

 

[syn]

Sure they do - the TTC has every right to say "no", and the province doesn't have any feasible recourse. But then when the TTC goes to Queen's Park and asks for funding for its $10+ billion Don Mills subway line to Sheppard, they're likely to get a similar answer.

The city already said yes to the TYSSE extension...and the RT replacement. The DRL should've been on the front burner years ago.

This is exactly why there's an imbalance of power. The TTC isn't going to say no to transit expansion money, even if it's not a high priority project.

There's always going to be something to fund that's politically advantageous, even if it makes little sense in terms of planning.

Sure they can. The city's $900 million contribution to the Scarborough Subway Extension is being funded by a 0.0024% residential property tax and slightly higher commercial & industrial taxes.. That works out to $2/month on a home worth one million dollars. The city could raise plenty of money for transit if they're willing to make people pay $30-40/month in additional taxes, and once the shovels are in the ground future governments would be bound to keeping the tax or replacing it with some new revenue source.

I'm pretty sure the levy adds around $40 to the property tax bill (on average) - and that's just for the city portion, which is going to end up being less than 20% of the total.

Property taxes would have to increase a lot more to fund tens of billions in transit expansion.

 

[amnesiajune]

The city already said yes to the TYSSE extension

Yeah. And they got a 6.2 kilometer subway to York University and Steeles for less than half of its $2+ billion cost.

The TTC isn't going to say no to transit expansion money, even if it's not a high priority project.

They will if the money doesn't benefit them. If the province offered the Yonge extension as a standalone project, the TTC would likely refuse to build it even if the Yonge subway's capacity wasn't an issue, since there's little benefit to them unless it operates at a profit. That's why the cities north of Toronto and the provincial government want to tie it to the DRL - it's likely their only chance to get it built.

I'm pretty sure the levy adds around $40 to the property tax bill (on average)

It's a 0.0024% tax. I don't know what the average amount paid is, but it's practically nothing. A home would have to be valued at nearly $1.7 million to be paying $40/year into the CBF.

 

[syn]

Yeah. And they got a 6.2 kilometer subway to York University and Steeles for less than half of its $2+ billion cost.

Which wasn't anywhere near a priority. It was a project really pushed by the province.

They will if the money doesn't benefit them. If the province offered the Yonge extension as a standalone project, the TTC would likely refuse to build it even if the Yonge subway's capacity wasn't an issue, since there's little benefit to them unless it operates at a profit. That's why the cities north of Toronto and the provincial government want to tie it to the DRL - it's likely their only chance to get it built.

When would it not benefit them? They didn't refuse to build the TYSSE or the Sheppard Line. The latter still requires a subsidy (as will the TYSSE).

It's a 0.0024% tax. I don't know what the average amount paid is, but it's practically nothing. A home would have to be valued at nearly $1.7 million to be paying $40/year into the CBF.

It's a 1.6% tax increase.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...d-cost-to-toronto-homeowners/article14745918/


"Once fully in place, the levy will add an average of $41 annually to Toronto homeowners’ tax bills for the next 30 years. The money, along with increased development fees, will be earmarked to pay for the city’s portion of the project – estimated at $910-million. The province and federal government also have pledged money for the project."

 

[OneCity]

It's a 1.6% tax increase.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...d-cost-to-toronto-homeowners/article14745918/


"Once fully in place, the levy will add an average of $41 annually to Toronto homeowners’ tax bills for the next 30 years. The money, along with increased development fees, will be earmarked to pay for the city’s portion of the project – estimated at $910-million. The province and federal government also have pledged money for the project."

Most taxes happen to address a specific intermediate term need and yet may never go away, this is one of the few taxes really I hope is the same case and stays forever. The City should be using the current support around the DRL to do the same as what was done for the SSE and set a static property tax increase that will remain in place. Unfortunately we are so far behind in planning if the City is actually going to be a major contributor In the DRL and other future Captial transit expansion this number needs to be closer to a 10% annual increase on property tax bills and that will be a major accomplishment for an administration to phase in. Its certainly not going to happen at once, if even possible. But could be phased in over the next couple decades.

Although I firmly believe the Fed and the Province should be paying the full costs for any "relief lines" and "expansion" lines should be separate and partnered heavily with the City. Toronto and Vancouver's growth is carrying the Country economically and Toronto is carrying the Province in what has been difficult economic times. If this were the case Toronto's number could be reduced and adding around 3% increase which could be much more achievable