[EastYorkTTCFan]

It's not remotely like the ferry to Rochester (!!!) since, duh, there would be subway stops in Toronto and it would facilitate intensification in Toronto and help people commute to Toronto and put fare-paying riders on the TTC (where, hopefully, there is room for them!) and Toronto and York Region are part of the same regional economy and....were you asking the question about the benefits to Toronto seriously, @EastYorkTTCFan ?

Yesa I am serious I don't see how it benefits Toronto other than overcrowding Younge an Bolor. As much s I don't agree with Mayor Tory's transit plans he is right the DRL needs to be built before we even think of extending the Young lin. I just don't see why Richmond Hill needs to be connected to the Toronto Subway system.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I like how you're for this and against Sheppard east .

And what's that determination based on? That I thought it was weird, in a discussion about 2 totally unrelated projects, a councillor tried to trick the Mayor of Markham - who could not possibly care less - into supporting his pet project?

For the record, I thought the Sheppard subway should have been built properly in the first place and I think it's ridiculous that the LRT should have been open by now.

Beyond that, I don't really care what the city does at this point - but it's got nothing to do with DRL and YNSE.

Yesa I am serious I don't see how it benefits Toronto other than overcrowding Younge an Bolor. As much s I don't agree with Mayor Tory's transit plans he is right the DRL needs to be built before we even think of extending the Young lin. I just don't see why Richmond Hill needs to be connected to the Toronto Subway system.

It benefits Toronto. If you can't see it, I can't help (especially if you think overcrowding is a benefit). But then ironically it is because it wouldn't be crowded if there weren't people from north of Finch - in Toronto and in in the 905 - going downtown to work and spend money and so forth.

Really, the answers to your questions are easily contained in the planning law of this province and the very basics of economic development in the 21st Century. If you don't see why, I'll just hope you don't work in either of those fields.

 

[Cobra]

But in this case, Toronto can claim it can't handle the new riders if DRL isn't built. And since Yonge north will still be operated by the TTC, the city could just choose not to run trains north of Steeles until the DRL is built/funded.

Which is something the STM in Montreal did for different reasons, mainly fiscal. Quebec caved, Toronto should mimic that strategy.

 

[minilude]

wow the comments from Josh Matlow is funny. He thinks tying the projects together would slow down the DRL??? what is he smoking??? If it were not the pressure from the north, DRL would never be realized given the incompetency of Toronto City Council.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

And what's that determination based on? That I thought it was weird, in a discussion about 2 totally unrelated projects, a councillor tried to trick the Mayor of Markham - who could not possibly care less - into supporting his pet project?

For the record, I thought the Sheppard subway should have been built properly in the first place and I think it's ridiculous that the LRT should have been open by now.

Beyond that, I don't really care what the city does at this point - but it's got nothing to do with DRL and YNSE.



It benefits Toronto. If you can't see it, I can't help (especially if you think overcrowding is a benefit). But then ironically it is because it wouldn't be crowded if there weren't people from north of Finch - in Toronto and in in the 905 - going downtown to work and spend money and so forth.

Really, the answers to your questions are easily contained in the planning law of this province and the very basics of economic development in the 21st Century. If you don't see why, I'll just hope you don't work in either of those fields.

But that's the problem, you don't car what the city does, but it's the city's subway. Which is why mayor tory is speaking out. Everyone talks about fare balacing but that still hasn't happened and it's been more then a decade since that has been brought up. You need to see why Toronto taxpayers are against this project. Both Sheppard East and Yonge North are vanity and vote buying exercises , it's just that one is the city and one is not.

 

[steveintoronto]

...InsideToronto has an article up on the meeting, the upshot of which is that Tory and his new pals will now put the DRL and YNSE in a shopping cart and head out to see if Trudeau and Wynne wanna help them pay for this package of products.

Many thanks for that link:
[...]
And they had a friendly ear. Mayor Tory told reporters following the meeting that he has withdrawn the threat and will work with York Region to plan for both subways, in return for help lobbying for more money.

Tory had met with the trio on Monday to iron out the deal.

“I think we’re in a stronger position coming here today, coming here together to say we need all three governments to proceed,” Tory said. “I’m going to be pressing with these people to move this forward to convince all the political parties to fund this project.”
[...]

There's a much bigger elephant on rails in the room, and Tory has been incredibly silent on it: The Missing Link. For the bandied cost (IBI Group state $5B) it would have an incredibly profound effect on *all* GTHA commuter and freight operations. There's only one sticky switch: Munis within York Region.

I Googled to find exactly what Tory has stated on record for The Missing Link, a cursory check shows nothing, but does show this:

Ontario government wants railways to make room for GO transit
Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca said he wants Ottawa to join Ontario in looking for ways to divert freight.

By Tess KalinowskiTransportation reporter
Mon., Nov. 16, 2015
[...]
Mayor John Tory told the business group that it’s time Toronto looks at public-private partnerships to build transit such as that being used by the province to build the Eglinton Crosstown LRT.

It needs to consider off-the-shelf solutions instead of the expensive, customized projects it typically delivers late and overbudget.

“Look no further than the (Spadina) subway extension,” he told the business group.

What should be “a source of great excitement” is wildly overbudget by hundreds of millions of dollars, and years over deadline.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...ransit-construction-mayor-john-tory-says.html

Flip-flops are more than just a form of sandals...

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

But that's the problem, you don't car what the city does, but it's the city's subway. Which is why mayor tory is speaking out. Everyone talks about fare balacing but that still hasn't happened and it's been more then a decade since that has been brought up. You need to see why Toronto taxpayers are against this project. Both Sheppard East and Yonge North are vanity and vote buying exercises , it's just that one is the city and one is not.

I'm assuming you both know it's not entirely outside the city and have a source for the taxpayers thing? Are taxpayers in Wards 23 and 24 against it? What about the landowners along Yonge south of Steeles?

And if the taxpayers against this project are the same ones who were for the 1-stop subway to Scarb or the Gardiner hybrid, you're right; I don't care what they think. They don't know what the regional network needs. My point about not-caring was if the city is going to waste 10 years cancelling approved/funded projects, I'm not going to put much stock in what they think constitutes proper prioritization.

As for fare integration, the fact that it's been 10 years since it was "brought up" is irrelevant. I could just as easily say you shouldn't wait on the DRL since it's been like 90 years since it was brought up. In the meantime, there is most definitely work on fare integration going on at Metrolinx (and I assume/hope, in conjunction with municipal staff). there is a thread for it here somewhere and there have been interim reports, so it's a real thing. The Spadina extension is forcing the issue, as will RER. It's a matter of how and when, not a question of IF it will happen.

And, in case it's no obvious, I 100% disagree Yonge north is a vote-buying project. Supporting a project ANYWHERE gets you some votes but Yonge north is demonstrably and obviously a key piece of The Big Move and Places to Grow so I'd say that's a peresonal opinion without much concrete evidence behind it. Lumping it in with Finch West strikes me as fairly absurd. Indeed, I could throw it back at you and say that by any objective criteria YNSE makes far more sense than the 1-stop SSE and Finch and Sheppard and the ONLY reason it seems less-so to you is because part of it is outside the area in which 416 taxes happen to be collected.

At the end of the day, I think it should be a priority and I think DRL should be as well since:
a) it's needed for this project specifically
b) Toronto probably needed it 20 years ago

The rest is just political theatre and no one's much better than anyone else there. If the politicians are all working together for a change it's at least more good than bad.

 

[amnesiajune]

Mayor Tory told reporters following the meeting that he has withdrawn the threat and will work with York Region to plan for both subways, in return for help lobbying for more money.

"Contrary to what a lot of people think, I don’t enjoy doing press…Nonetheless, I understand that getting press can be very helpful in making deals."

"I make the best deals. My deals are so good. They're truly excellent, believe me."

There's a much bigger elephant on rails in the room, and Tory has been incredibly silent on it: The Missing Link. For the bandied cost (IBI Group state $5B) it would have an incredibly profound effect on *all* GTHA commuter and freight operations. There's only one sticky switch: Munis within York Region.

Why does John Tory care, at least as mayor? It doesn't benefit his constituents. It just clears room for Metrolinx to run more trains to/from Mississauga and Milton (and that takes up space at Union Station that he needs for whatever you wanna call his Overground-type proposal).

 

[Forgotten]

Tory flip flops again. News at 11.

 

[amnesiajune]

Wow the comments from Josh Matlow is funny. He thinks tying the projects together would slow down the DRL??? what is he smoking??? If it were not the pressure from the north, DRL would never be realized given the incompetency of Toronto City Council.

Josh Matlow's politics are like a four-year-old kid - he wants to have everything without making any sacrifices. And to be fair, there's no reason why he shouldn't be that way, because that's exactly how most of his constituents feel. I'd love to see him explain how the city is going to pay for a $6.8 billion subway (much more if it's going to go north of Bloor, which is the only way it'll benefit his neighbourhood) without any assistance from the provincial government, because I'm sure he knows that the DRL won't get one penny from them unless it's paired with Yonge North.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I generally like Matlow and I suspect that if there's polling showing he has a shot, he'll be taking on Tory this term or next. His problems are really the problems endemic to the entire City Council and those problems are really a result of the system (FPTP, parochial wards etc.)

I guess he figures that by opening the barn door, Tory's allowing the possibility that even if the projects are linked, YNSE will go first.

Politically (per everything denton said above), he's certainly preaching to a nice constituency of "why should we send OUR subway waaaaaay up to Richmond Hill?!" people. And politically, I have to give Tory credit for compromising and showing a degree of regionalism. He showed it back in his CivicAction days but has been more disappointing of late, IMHO.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm assuming you both know it's not entirely outside the city and have a source for the taxpayers thing? Are taxpayers in Wards 23 and 24 against it? What about the landowners along Yonge south of Steeles?

And if the taxpayers against this project are the same ones who were for the 1-stop subway to Scarb or the Gardiner hybrid, you're right; I don't care what they think. They don't know what the regional network needs. My point about not-caring was if the city is going to waste 10 years cancelling approved/funded projects, I'm not going to put much stock in what they think constitutes proper prioritization.

As for fare integration, the fact that it's been 10 years since it was "brought up" is irrelevant. I could just as easily say you shouldn't wait on the DRL since it's been like 90 years since it was brought up. In the meantime, there is most definitely work on fare integration going on at Metrolinx (and I assume/hope, in conjunction with municipal staff). there is a thread for it here somewhere and there have been interim reports, so it's a real thing. The Spadina extension is forcing the issue, as will RER. It's a matter of how and when, not a question of IF it will happen.

And, in case it's no obvious, I 100% disagree Yonge north is a vote-buying project. Supporting a project ANYWHERE gets you some votes but Yonge north is demonstrably and obviously a key piece of The Big Move and Places to Grow so I'd say that's a peresonal opinion without much concrete evidence behind it. Lumping it in with Finch West strikes me as fairly absurd. Indeed, I could throw it back at you and say that by any objective criteria YNSE makes far more sense than the 1-stop SSE and Finch and Sheppard and the ONLY reason it seems less-so to you is because part of it is outside the area in which 416 taxes happen to be collected.

At the end of the day, I think it should be a priority and I think DRL should be as well since:
a) it's needed for this project specifically
b) Toronto probably needed it 20 years ago

The rest is just political theatre and no one's much better than anyone else there. If the politicians are all working together for a change it's at least more good than bad.

YNSE will have less ridership then any part of the subway south of steeles, or overcrowd the yonge line. So will the 1-stop Scarborough extension. Some are for the yonge north extension and against scarborough, some are for scarborough and against yonge north. But I bet a plurality are against both. Probably because they are both low ridership vote buyers for politicians to pander to the suburbs. And let's be honest, this brawl all started with Sobara giving Vaughan a subway that it didn't deserve, while Toronto had (and still have) a ton of transit deserts. So asking why they are trying to serve Richmond Hill when large parts of Toronto still don't have any RT is a vaild question. I get how bad it looks to some in Scarborough that there was a big fight over what they get but YNSE is sailing through.

IMO of course.

 

[steveintoronto]

Why does John Tory care, at least as mayor? It (The Missing Link) doesn't benefit his constituents.

Because it's City of Toronto policy:

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-94293.pdf

 

[OneCity]

wow the comments from Josh Matlow is funny. He thinks tying the projects together would slow down the DRL??? what is he smoking??? If it were not the pressure from the north, DRL would never be realized given the incompetency of Toronto City Council.

Agreed. Matlow is a one trick "evidence based" pony. And while this works well for his constituents. Its this type of transit rich selfish Politicians trying to dictate whats best for other areas that has fueled the Ford vote. What was interesting to see was the Mayors of Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill all working together. If only Toronto could support its own areas individual choices instead of looking for corners to cut we'd see much better progress and fight the people who can actually fund these projects.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Agreed. Matlow is a one trick "evidence based" pony. What was interesting to see was Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill all working together. If only Toronto could support its own areas individual choices instead of looking for corners to cut we'd see much better progress.

You can't really compare municipalities in a regional municipality to districts in a city. I would love for someone to point out the differences and similarities between the Regional Municipality of York and the City of Toronto.