[adrianaliu]

On one hand I like the idea of extending the Yonge line just to Steeles in the interim. There are roughly twice as many buses running between Steeles and Finch than north of Steeles. Shortening those bus routes would both improve the bus operations and de-congest Yonge.

On the other hand, there is a concern that doing the Yonge extension in 2 phases will increase the total cost, as the launch / extraction operation will have to be performed twice.

i like to apply the same logic to extending bd to cloverdale

 

[drum118]

On one hand I like the idea of extending the Yonge line just to Steeles in the interim. There are roughly twice as many buses running between Steeles and Finch than north of Steeles. Shortening those bus routes would both improve the bus operations and de-congest Yonge.

On the other hand, there is a concern that doing the Yonge extension in 2 phases will increase the total cost, as the launch / extraction operation will have to be performed twice.

As I have said from day one, neither ML or any real business case support a subway to RH. ML was only seeing 8,000 riders a peak time and below the line of a subway in the first place.

Neither ML, TTC nor YRT state what opening day numbers would be based on the time line around 2008. Based on current ridership of ML and doing projected numbers for opening day, Ridership would be around 2,000/hr for 2 peak hours and around 1,000/hr outside of peak hours. Based on carrying capacity of a TR, service would have to be every 20-30 minutes.

During the round tables with Richmond Hill and York Region Staff that I was on, they wanted the extension to either go to 16th mile or the north side of Richmond Hill, with north of RH being prefer. By going north of RH, it allow the plan BRT to be upgrade to LRT and not worry about transit going south on Yonge.

The amount of buses and drivers being removed for both TTC & YRT would have a huge impact on the bottom line for them and able to either offer more service for the remaining sections of routes or to be used elsewhere.

There is nothing stopping to have the Steeles station setup for future extension if the need every rise to built the extension, but what is the cost in operation to build and run trains to RC when ridership will be worse that the current Sheppard line??? It becomes a Peter to pay Paul to built the extension and not providing badly needed service for other routes.

 

[drum118]

i like to apply the same logic to extending bd to cloverdale

The logic is there for Cloverdale, but out to lunch to take it to Sherway or any thought of running the line alone Dundas to Dixie Rd in Mississauga for at least 50 years.

 

[11th]

On one hand I like the idea of extending the Yonge line just to Steeles in the interim. There are roughly twice as many buses running between Steeles and Finch than north of Steeles. Shortening those bus routes would both improve the bus operations and de-congest Yonge.

On the other hand, there is a concern that doing the Yonge extension in 2 phases will increase the total cost, as the launch / extraction operation will have to be performed twice.

If it's just an extension to Steeles, they are better off with cut-and-cover. Slightly more disruptive, yes, but the stations can be built shallow.

 

[BMO]

On one of the maps for the extension, it shows a dotted line going further north past Richmond Hill station. Does that imply that Hillcrest Mall will the last stop or potentially Aurora?

There will be a storage facility underground for trains north of Richmond Hill Centre Station + when they did the studies for the Yonge Extension they also looked at whether a future extension to 16th avenue would be feasible and that's why the line is dotted, although nothing is planned for the line to be extended past Richmond Hill Centre, but this alignment doesn't preclude that from eventually happening.

 

[micheal_can]

There will be a storage facility underground for trains north of Richmond Hill Centre Station + when they did the studies for the Yonge Extension they also looked at whether a future extension to 16th avenue would be feasible and that's why the line is dotted, although nothing is planned for the line to be extended past Richmond Hill Centre, but this alignment doesn't preclude that from eventually happening.

If York Region was willing to foot the entire cost of any extension beyond RHC, how much further would make sense? Anything much further than there is mostly single family homes.

 

[BMO]

As I have said from day one, neither ML or any real business case support a subway to RH. ML was only seeing 8,000 riders a peak time and below the line of a subway in the first place.

Neither ML, TTC nor YRT state what opening day numbers would be based on the time line around 2008. Based on current ridership of ML and doing projected numbers for opening day, Ridership would be around 2,000/hr for 2 peak hours and around 1,00/hr outside of peak hours. Based on carrying capacity of a TR, service would have to be every 20-30 minutes.

During the round tables with Richmond Hill and York Region Staff that I was on, they wanted the extension to either go to 16th mile or the north side of Richmond Hill, with north of RH being prefer. By going north of RH, it allow the plan BRT to be upgrade to LRT and not worry about transit going south on Yonge.

The amount of buses and drivers being removed for both TTC & YRT would have a huge impact on the bottom line for them and able to either offer more service for the remaining sections of routes or to be used elsewhere.

There is nothing stopping to have the Steeles station setup for future extension if the need every rise to built the extension, but what is the cost in operation to build and run trains to RC when ridership will be worse that the current Sheppard line??? It becomes a Peter to pay Paul to built the extension and not providing badly needed service for other routes.

It would be nice if you linked to some data or studies to back this up beyond just stating 100 passengers per hour outside of the peak for the corridor which is absurd ( I hope you misspelled and meant 1,000 at least). The Yonge-Subway Extension Benefits Case produced by SDG in 2013 identifies different ridership projections: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...ts_Case-Yonge_North_Subway_Extension_2013.pdf

Demand levels on the line increase in the southbound direction, with peak loads south of Finch just over 25,000 passengers for the 2031 AM peak hour for Option 1, and reaching a line maximum of just over 44,000 passengers at Bloor-Yonge. Options 2 and 2A show similar ridership levels, which are lower than Option 1. This is illustrated in the figure below.

Demand levels forecast on the line are higher than the subway planning capacity estimates (38,000 passengers per hour per direction at 180 passengers per subway car). However, it is acknowledged that maximum allowable capacity is likely to be higher. Assuming 220 passengers per subway car, the forecast level of demand is below the allowable capacity for all options after ATO and Rocket train roll out.

Ofcourse these don't show opening day, but if you have managed to find those numbers in some other business case that would be enlightening.

Also do we not realize that the subway extension functions as a piece of a broader line? If you had 30,000 riders per direction per hour on the extension alone nobody would be able to get on the subway at Finch Station. It depends on the origin-destination pairs, sure 30K pphpd is fine if you're servicing short trips, but for medium-to-long trips it's not feasible to have the extension servicing such a high number of people unless a large chunk are being re-distributed from the existing terminal station at Finch.

 

[Leo_Chan]

If York Region was willing to foot the entire cost of any extension beyond RHC, how much further would make sense? Anything much further than there is mostly single family homes.

Major Mackenzie Drive should be the final station and the definite terminus of the Yonge Subway at the edge of the "Village of Richmond Hill" heritage area and future Richmond Hill City Hall, same for the University Subway at Vaughan Mackenzie Hospital. These future extensions should defninitely be 100% funded by York Region including operation expenses as they replace large sections of Viva Blue and Viva Silver. Anything north of that should be BRT/LRT and 100% funded by York Region and the municipalities.

 

[mdrejhon]

You are better off building the Yonge Line to Steeles today than wait until the DRL gets to Eglinton.

The extension should had happen when that extension was built in the first place, since the ridership was there then.

By building the extension today, it does a number of things that will benefit everyone.

With the Steeles station in place, both TTC and YRT can remove buses that get caught up in traffic from Steeles to Finch and still offer the same quality of service. Riders save travel time both way. Traffic will have no buses to deal with and allow the plan to move forward to reduce the number of lanes and add bike lanes.

Since there is no real plan in place for adding parking spaces at Steeles, the 905 riders will still have to drive to Finch.

I have never had an issue of building the extension to Steeles, but do to RH.

A cheap way to quickly get the YNE built is to expedite the DRL build all the way to Richmond Hill:

If the DRL reaches Oriole station:

If DRL reaches Oriole GO stations, then:
-- South of Sheppard: DRL could be a tunneled subway
-- North of Sheppard: DRL could use the Richmond Hill GO corridor
-- No GO stations lost (all Richmond Hill GO stations are at Sheppard or north of)
-- DRL replaces Richmond Hill GO train service.

A cost-effective DRL extension all the way to Richmond Hill instead -- while simultaneously upgrading Richmond Hill GO into a metro.

The DRL would actually be a faster trip than the slow wind-through the Valley, and would be superset of Richmond Hill GO line.

I left the question of Langstaff and Richmond Hill open -- it could terminate in Richmond Hill (serving both stations)

Obviously, there are pros/cons with this but it is apparently talked about as one of the options -- that sometime north of the Sheppard Line, the DRL switches to the Richmond Hill corridor north of Eglinton, taking over all of the existing Richmond Hill GO stations all the way to Richmond Hill.

Grade separating the corridor all the way to Richmond Hill -- might be cheaper than tunnelling all the way from merely Sheppard Subway to just Sheppard -- and provide more benefits.

It is very difficult and not very effective to put GO stops deep in the valley, so the DRL ends up becoming a bypass for Richmond Hill GO line! (i.e. south of Sheppard = Subway to Oriole, then north of Sheppard = Subway goes over Richmond Hill GO corridor serving existing GO stops instead of the GO trains).

Some caveats of this approach would be that potential future Ontario Northlander trains would not be able to reach all the way Toronto Union. So there would need to be some quid pro quo like making a very nice transit interchange at, say, Langstaff that serves 3 major rail lines (YNE, DRL, and all northern train routes), or a 3rd track between Langstaff and Sheppard, to allow traditional-rail trains to continue to Union (especially if keeping the existing Richmond Hill GO service). The conversation is needed.

While a transfer ends up being needed for anyone travelling southwards from north of Richmond Hill -- most people who take the train to Union needs to transfer to other destinations anyway, and if a compact intermodal terminal (407 buses, DRL subway, YNE subway, northern trains, etc) is built in place of Langstaff or Richmond Hill, then the transfer there can be made less painful than a transfer at Union! On average, the region would win. So the eye is in the beholder.

The conversation may take a while, but if you needed to do something cost-effectively, this may be one of the many options.

Especially if the premier is trying to cut costs and getting maximum suburb benefits -- maximum stations and maximum service -- for the lowest cost.

With the DRL cheaply reaching Richmond Hill, there becomes 2 separate subways that reach downtown, and the DRL becomes much more of a true relief line option:
--> DRL connects Line 1 Yonge Line at Richmond Hill
--> DRL connects future 407 rapid transit
--> DRL connects future Steeles rapid transit
--> DRL connects Line 4 Sheppard Subway at Oriole
--> DRL connects Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown LRT
--> DRL connects Line 2 Bloor-Danforth at Pape
--> DRL connects Line 1 Yonge-University at Queen & Osogoode.

This may be a way to help justify the build of the Yonge North extension a little bit more quickly.

 

[drum118]

A cheap way to quickly get the YNE built is to expedite the DRL build all the way to Richmond Hill:

If the DRL reaches Oriole station:

If DRL reaches Oriole GO stations, then:
-- South of Sheppard: DRL could be a tunneled subway
-- North of Sheppard: DRL could use the Richmond Hill GO corridor
-- No GO stations lost (all Richmond Hill GO stations are at Sheppard or north of)
-- DRL replaces Richmond Hill GO train service.

A cost-effective DRL extension all the way to Richmond Hill instead -- while simultaneously upgrading Richmond Hill GO into a metro.

The DRL would actually be a faster trip than the slow wind-through the Valley, and would be superset of Richmond Hill GO line.

I left the question of Langstaff and Richmond Hill open -- it could terminate in Richmond Hill (serving both stations)

Obviously, there are pros/cons with this but it is apparently talked about as one of the options -- that sometime north of the Sheppard Line, the DRL switches to the Richmond Hill corridor north of Eglinton, taking over all of the existing Richmond Hill GO stations all the way to Richmond Hill.

Grade separating the corridor all the way to Richmond Hill -- might be cheaper than tunnelling all the way from merely Sheppard Subway to just Sheppard -- and provide more benefits.

It is very difficult and not very effective to put GO stops deep in the valley, so the DRL ends up becoming a bypass for Richmond Hill GO line! (i.e. south of Sheppard = Subway to Oriole, then north of Sheppard = Subway goes over Richmond Hill GO corridor serving existing GO stops instead of the GO trains).

Some caveats of this approach would be that potential future Ontario Northlander trains would not be able to reach all the way Toronto Union. So there would need to be some quid pro quo like making a very nice transit interchange at, say, Langstaff that serves 3 major rail lines (YNE, DRL, and all northern train routes), or a 3rd track between Langstaff and Sheppard, to allow traditional-rail trains to continue to Union (especially if keeping the existing Richmond Hill GO service). The conversation is needed.

While a transfer ends up being needed for anyone travelling southwards from north of Richmond Hill -- most people who take the train to Union needs to transfer to other destinations anyway, and if a compact intermodal terminal (407 buses, DRL subway, YNE subway, northern trains, etc) is built in place of Langstaff or Richmond Hill, then the transfer there can be made less painful than a transfer at Union! On average, the region would win. So the eye is in the beholder.

The conversation may take a while, but if you needed to do something cost-effectively, this may be one of the many options.

Especially if the premier is trying to cut costs and getting maximum suburb benefits -- maximum stations and maximum service -- for the lowest cost.

With the DRL cheaply reaching Richmond Hill, there becomes 2 separate subways that reach downtown, and the DRL becomes much more of a true relief line option:
--> DRL connects Line 1 Yonge Line at Richmond Hill
--> DRL connects future 407 rapid transit
--> DRL connects future Steeles rapid transit
--> DRL connects Line 4 Sheppard Subway at Oriole
--> DRL connects Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown LRT
--> DRL connects Line 2 Bloor-Danforth at Pape
--> DRL connects Line 1 Yonge-University at Queen & Osogoode.

This may be a way to help justify the build of the Yonge North extension a little bit more quickly.

I have said the DRL should be built as 4 track to handle EMU's only, that would interline with various rail corridors. It would go north to hwy 7 as phase 2 after the line reaches Steeles and is needed.

The line would interchange at Lawrence and one or both corridors in the west using DD trains only.

Sad part, all of us will be dead if this DRL gets built to Steeles, let alone to Hwy 7 at the rate things get built in Toronto. We are up to 120 years for the first proposed DRL. We are over 10 years talking on this new idea for the DRL.

I would not run the DRL to RHC, but continue straight north. It would do the same thing in York Region as it going to do in Toronto, shorten riders time to RT line to Toronto City Core.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I have said the DRL should be built as 4 track to handle EMU's only, that would interline with various rail corridors. It would go north to hwy 7 as phase 2 after the line reaches Steeles and is needed.

The line would interchange at Lawrence and one or both corridors in the west using DD trains only.

Sad part, all of us will be dead if this DRL gets built to Steeles, let alone to Hwy 7 at the rate things get built in Toronto. We are up to 120 years for the first proposed DRL. We are over 10 years talking on this new idea for the DRL.

I would not run the DRL to RHC, but continue straight north. It would do the same thing in York Region as it going to do in Toronto, shorten riders time to RT line to Toronto City Core.

I would like to add that having two lines converging in the outside of downtown doesn't make much sense. Unless RHC becomes the next North York Centre or Mississauga Centre, it doesn't make sense to have 2 subway lines from the south going to it when one of those lines should fill in the gap between Yonge(Line 1) and Kennedy(Unionville GO).

 

[drum118]

It would be nice if you linked to some data or studies to back this up beyond just stating 100 passengers per hour outside of the peak for the corridor which is absurd ( I hope you misspelled and meant 1,000 at least). The Yonge-Subway Extension Benefits Case produced by SDG in 2013 identifies different ridership projections: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...ts_Case-Yonge_North_Subway_Extension_2013.pdf





Ofcourse these don't show opening day, but if you have managed to find those numbers in some other business case that would be enlightening.

Also do we not realize that the subway extension functions as a piece of a broader line? If you had 30,000 riders per direction per hour on the extension alone nobody would be able to get on the subway at Finch Station. It depends on the origin-destination pairs, sure 30K pphpd is fine if you're servicing short trips, but for medium-to-long trips it's not feasible to have the extension servicing such a high number of people unless a large chunk are being re-distributed from the existing terminal station at Finch.

That should be 1,000 off peak and those are my numbers as well 3,000/hr. Back in 2008, Peak PM ridership for Yonge YRT was just under 900.

Neither TTC, ML or York Region have numbers for opening day and I have pushed openly at various TTC meetings, ML and York for those number and none have surface to date since 2007. How can these 3 parties not have opening days numbers otherwise showing number that shows there is no need for a subway in the first place.

If one wants to know ridership numbers north of Steeles, one adds all YRT bus service north of Steeles using Yonge, plus 3,000 cars drivers. Number of car drivers could be either way. If there is 3,000 or more cars in York Region using the line, how big of a parking structure has to be built the X number of cars down the road?

Ones needs to look at all benefit cases to see how numbers have change over the years.

 

[44 North]

I'd like to see an option of extending the subway to Bathurst/Steeles, which is part of the original plan before YR wanted a subway. And the area has had large densities for decades unlike anywhere in YR. At Yonge/Steeles have the start of a separate smaller-scale subway line forming an inverted U up to however far YR wants it, then looping back south to Jane/Hwy 7. We know they're pushing for the same done with Line 1, but this would be less insane and certainly more realistic. Hwy 7 is already unbelievably far out, 16th or Major Mack is crazy.

Yeah yeah, I get it we can't have a transfer or a separate line even though these things are done elsewhere. But if it's looked at 1:1 alongside divisive decade-long debates for piecemeal extensions, and it has more than ample capacity, I think it could be viewed quite well. More km and coverage for less costs. Could use the same vehicles as other future lines like RL or a converted Line 4 so any "orphan" argument could go out the window.

 

[jcam]

Hate to be a downer, but standard gauge for DRL south is a non-starter.

DRL St. Andrew-Pape will be using TTC gauge, therefore anything north will have to use TTC gauge, so you can't share track in the Richmond Hill corrdior...you'd have to convert it all to TTC gauge.

 

[BMO]

That should be 1,000 off peak and those are my numbers as well 3,000/hr. Back in 2008, Peak PM ridership for Yonge YRT was just under 900.

Neither TTC, ML or York Region have numbers for opening day and I have pushed openly at various TTC meetings, ML and York for those number and none have surface to date since 2007. How can these 3 parties not have opening days numbers otherwise showing number that shows there is no need for a subway in the first place.

If one wants to know ridership numbers north of Steeles, one adds all YRT bus service north of Steeles using Yonge, plus 3,000 cars drivers. Number of car drivers could be either way. If there is 3,000 or more cars in York Region using the line, how big of a parking structure has to be built the X number of cars down the road?

Ones needs to look at all benefit cases to see how numbers have change over the years.

With all due respect, I understand what you're trying to say, but many drivers that park at Finch Station don't use Yonge Street to get there. To distill future or even existing numbers based on Bus Ridership and vehicles along Yonge Proper doesn't give the full picture. The catchment at Finch Station extends to Bathurst and Bayview vehicles that come south and use Hilda, Willodale and Finch to get there along with Yonge Street. Even despite this, not all vehicles on Yonge or any other corridor are all destined for Finch Station either.