[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I just can't get over the fact that we're talking about building a subway out of Toronto to yet another smaller city than Mississauga. It's so bizarre.

Richmond Hill (source: wikipedia):
Population (2006)
- Total 162,704 (Ranked 28th)

Vaughan (source: wikipedia):
Population (2006)
- Total 238,866

Mississauga (source: wikipedia):
Population (2008)
- Total 704,246 (Ranked 6th)

Yes, but geographically Richmond Hill is rather small and every one of the stations is on the Markham/Vaughan border. RH Centre is on the Markham/Vaughan/Richmond Hill border so, while it terminates in a town of 163,000 people, it runs right down the centre of an area that is pretty dense for suburbs. Richmond Hill might not have a huge population but draw a radius around Highway 7 and Yonge Street and you get a decent number, I think.

As others have mentioned, if you impose arbitrary political boundaries you're really missing the point (which is precisely what the TTC has been doing for decades). That Yonge corridor, from Finch to Hwy 7 is very heavily traveled and is as natural a subway extension as I have seen.

CN restrictions on the rail lines in RH have prevented GO from offering the kind of service they do out west and east and having the subway compensates for that problem as well. I understand the criticisms of Sheppard and Spadina but this extension looks like a slam dunk to me.

 

[BobBob]

Well, Mississauga does have an average population density of 2,100 / km^2.

Markham has 1,200, RH has 1,600 and Vaughan has 900.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

For a Kipling extension, look what's just beyond the Mississauga border...a mile of industry (on top of more than a mile of industry in the 416). What's immediately north of Steeles? Thornhill. Of course, the main reason York Region is getting two subway extensions is because they want and asked for two subway extensions...Peel didn't.

 

[ShonTron]

Well, Mississauga does have an average population density of 2,100 / km^2.

Markham has 1,200, RH has 1,600 and Vaughan has 900.

Mississauga is built out. None of the other municipalities are, though Richmond Hill is butting against the Greenbelt. Vaughan is laughable, but the Thornhill area isn't really Vaughan anyway.

Hazel opposes a subway, the population density along Dundas as far as Dixie is minimal, and Mississauga would be much better served by a Milton line S-Bahn anyway. The Richmond Hill line really has limited potential (especially with the possibility of using the CP shortcut reduced with that spur's abandonment), the Milton line has great potential.

 

[xtremesniper]

As others have mentioned, if you impose arbitrary political boundaries you're really missing the point (which is precisely what the TTC has been doing for decades). That Yonge corridor, from Finch to Hwy 7 is very heavily traveled and is as natural a subway extension as I have seen.

And Bingo was his name-o.

That's as simple as it gets, folks. A huge chunk of the buses coming out of Finch station simply go north, whether they go north on Yonge, or Bayview, or any other nearby northbound street, they go north. Having the subway extension would compliment a very large number of daily riders, and it would help restructure bus routes to make them more efficient, as they wouldn't have to travel as far to get to a major transit line.

But what I still don't get to this day is how they are going to deal with the Steeles Ave barrier? Are they getting rid of it? Are riders who cross in the subway exempt? Are they finally going to realize that the Steeles Ave barrier is the sole reason why thousands of people refuse to take transit to their places of work every day? I've spoken to YRT about this and they just say that they try to discuss it with the TTC but they get no co-operation about it.

The TTC is as selfish of a transit system as you can get. Adam himself said publicly that the TTC actually doesn't even want the subway extensions to go through. They are only doing it because the government is funding it; that's it.

 

[smuncky]

by the time the extension is opened, there will be a totally different fare structure for the GTA.

 

[CDL.TO]

Well, Mississauga does have an average population density of 2,100 / km^2.

Markham has 1,200, RH has 1,600 and Vaughan has 900.

And Thornhill, bounded by Steeles, the 407, the 404, and the GO Newmarket line has a density of 2815 people/km2.

 

[Disparishun]

And Thornhill, bounded by Steeles, the 407, the 404, and the GO Newmarket line has a density of 2815 people/km2.

I'm curious -- where does the number come from? I imagine it should go up by quite a bit in the next few years (Yonge corridor, Bathurst-Centre, post-uncertainty Yonge-Steeles)...

 

[CDL.TO]

I'm curious -- where does the number come from? I imagine it should go up by quite a bit in the next few years (Yonge corridor, Bathurst-Centre, post-uncertainty Yonge-Steeles)...

The figure is derived from Statistics Canada 2006 Census data.

 

[CDL.TO]

Well, Mississauga does have an average population density of 2,100 / km^2.

Markham has 1,200, RH has 1,600 and Vaughan has 900.

In comparison, a 1km buffer around around:
- A west leg of a DRL from Union to Eglinton & Weston would have a density of 7466 people/km2 and serve 175,000 people.
- A east leg of a DRL from Union to Eglinton & Don Mills would have a density of 6397 people/km2 and serve 146,000 people.

In comparison, the the Bloor-Danforth has a density of 6928 people/km2 and serves 373,800 people.

Buffers are an overly simplistic way of assessing these things, but still make for a bit of an interesting comparison. The also don't account for employment and recreation locations.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Vaughan Thornhill has a population edge over Markham Thornhill - roughly 64,000 to 47,000 - despite being a tad smaller, but Markham Thornhill is poised to catch up, with the big Langstaff site, Markhamgate Summit, and extensive redevelopment of the Yonge corridor. Vaughan Thornhill has plenty of room to grow, though, like the 600m long block of Crestwood just west of Yonge that only has about 25 houses on it but should have hundreds of townhouse units and/or thousands of tower units.

 

[doady]

That's not what he suggested at all. You're still fixated on arbitrary political boundaries. We're talking about the buses and car traffic you take off the road by extending the Yonge line 7 km north.

Not the overall size and density of Mississauga or Peel Region or Richmond Hill or Markham or Vaughan or York Region, or Central Ontario, or GTAH. Just a 7 km stretch.

I am not talking about all of Mississauga either. I am talking about east and central Mississauga, which I think is much denser and has higher ridership than the rest of Mississauga.

However, even though Mississauga overall has much higher ridership overall than York Region overall, I think the ridership of Thornhill and Richmond Hill is comparable to east Mississauga, at least in terms of the amount people using the subway. This is an important point, because Mississauga is different from York Region because less people actually transfer to the TTC. 20% compared to 40%, or something like that. I think that is the key difference between the two systems. People in Mississauga tend to work closer to home.

However, one might argue that York Region's higher reliance on subway connection and tendency to commute longer distance might mean that the ridership could be more easily taken away by GO. Yes the Yonge subway extension could have higher ridership at first, but what happens when GO improves its train service? And what about the capacity of the Yonge subway in the meantime? Should the subway be for long distance travel, or short and medium distance?

The answers to these questions relate to the reason why I don't support a subway into Mississauga and am perfectly happy with the planned LRT lines. It is clear that LRT is designed for traveling shorter distances, which is what Mississauga needs the most. With a subway extension it is less clear: possibly not serving short distance travel very well and at the same time possibly as not as convenient as an improved Milton Line either for long distances.

That said, I just don't understand how people who support the Yonge extension can so easily dismiss the idea of subway into Mississauga, even to the point of ridiculing all those who support the idea. So many people seem to forget that Dundas between Hurontario and Islington has a similar ridership to Yonge between Finch and Hwy 7. No "whole new travel pattern" has to be created, as Chuck claims. It is already there.

Anyways, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of demanding extensive and detailed studies for the feasibility of a subway in Mississauga when no such studies were undertaken for this Yonge subway extension either. People seem to forget that this extension is the result of politics. Neither are unworthy extensions to the systems, but are either of them really better options that Bloor-Danforth and Sheppard extensions to SCC? Or the DRL?

 

[Chuck]

You clearly have never been to Mississauga before and are talking waaaaay out of your ass. A subway to Mississauga would be a "brand new travel pattern"? "out of thin air"? WTF. What have you been smoking?

I still believe without a doubt that this would create a new transit corridor out of thin air. I'm not denying that tens of thousands people from Mississauga take the TTC, however all I am saying is that after leaving the subway, buses scatter in all directions - some run up the 427, some head west along Dundas, others along Burnhamthorpe, others up Dixie... To build a subway, you not only need transit riders (which Mississauga clearly has), you also need those trips to be heavily concentrated in a single corridor.

Probably the best solution for the western end of the Bloor subway is to create a massive LRT terminal, with at least five high capacity LRT lines radiating out in all direction southwest, west, and northwest into Mississauga. While there are many heavily used bus routes from Mississauga that feed the subway - maybe even more than feed Finch from York Region - no single corridor has anywhere near the flow of passengers per hour that Yonge has.

The difference between York Region and Mississauga is not in the volume of passengers, it's in the concentration of passengers along a single corridor.

 

[EnviroTO]

It could easily go along Dundas, and then turn north at Hurontario.

Easily compared to what? Compared to doing nothing it is far more difficult. Compared to telling people to get to a GO station and providing increased GO frequency it is far more difficult. Something that is actually easy would be done already.

There is nothing on Dundas, no advanced plans for densification on Dundas, and there is a GO line running right next to it. Not a single MT bus goes along Dundas and north on Hurontario. Far more MT buses go north to Burhamthorpe and Eglinton than go west on Dundas. Following the path of greatest density and shortest length would sent the subway north in the 427 or Etobicoke River corridor to Bloor, follow Bloor, under Robert Speck, and into the MCC. Mississauga has made no plans for LRT, BRT, express bus, subway, or anything else from MCC to the subway via Dundas. If GO goes hourly 7 days a week where are the people on a MCC to Kipling subway going? One needs to know where people are going to know if a subway extension will work.

 

[Dan416]

Talking out of your ass much? Um, hello, planned Dundas LRT! So don't say there's not plans along Dundas! It's the second-busiest route after Hurontario!

I seriously think there's some kind of anti-Mississauga bias on this forum. Somehow Richmond Hill is a "natural" extension, whereas Mississauga is not. It's pure ridiculousness.

You realize that all those routes that go into Islington would be feeding a subway along Dundas right? You think most people on Burnhamthorpe or Bloor would take a bus along Burnhamthorpe or Bloor when they could take the subway straight from Dundas? They aren't even traveling to Islington itself! They just want to get on the subway faster!

You know how many times I've heard random people on the bus or at school or anywhere talk about a subway to Mississauga? It's what Mississaugans want!

In summary, Chuck and EnviroTO, you guys are full of it.