Notice that we are comparing a reasonable extension of the Yonge line with "a subway to Mississauga," and not a reasonable extension of the Bloor line with "a subway to Richmond Hill." Maybe if Mississaugans stopped arguing that Mississauga needs a subway and started arguing that the Bloor line needs to be extended, the idea would get more traction on the forum (and, perhaps, in real life, too).
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Talking out of your ass much? Um, hello, planned Dundas LRT! So don't say there's not plans along Dundas! It's the second-busiest route after Hurontario!

I seriously think there's some kind of anti-Mississauga bias on this forum. Somehow Richmond Hill is a "natural" extension, whereas Mississauga is not. It's pure ridiculousness.

You realize that all those routes that go into Islington would be feeding a subway along Dundas right? You think most people on Burnhamthorpe or Bloor would take a bus along Burnhamthorpe or Bloor when they could take the subway straight from Dundas? They aren't even traveling to Islington itself! They just want to get on the subway faster!

You know how many times I've heard random people on the bus or at school or anywhere talk about a subway to Mississauga? It's what Mississaugans want!

In summary, Chuck and EnviroTO, you guys are full of it.
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Hey man, don't complain to me. Complain to your councillor, your mayor, and your regional council - unlike their York Region counterparts, none of them are pushing for an extension of the Bloor subway.

I have nothing against Mississauga, I'm just being practical. Also unlike York Region, Mississauga isn't currently, hasn't previously, and may never plan development in a way that supports an extension of the Bloor subway. Yes, there could easily be a new subway line built on Hurontario, but connecting it to the GO train will always make more sense than the Bloor subway.
 
Sir Novelty Fashion said:
Wouldn't a direct connection to Mississauga be a better task for regional rail than a 45-minute long subway ride, anyway?
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I think so, especially if it lets you transfer at Kipling to the subway or continue for an express ride downtown.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Talking out of your ass much? Um, hello, planned Dundas LRT! So don't say there's not plans along Dundas! It's the second-busiest route after Hurontario!
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Um hello, I'm talking about a subway to MCC. There are no plans to have the Dundas LRT turn up Hurontario to the MCC. Wonder why... perhaps they don't expect the majority of people on the Dundas LRT to go to the MCC. If you replace the Dundas LRT as planned with a subway where are the riders going to come from? There isn't any big trip generators on Dundas I can think of. The big trip generators in Mississauga are Pearson Airport, the Airport Business Park, and MCC.... none of which are on Dundas.

The University extension to York U followed the existing bus routes and VIVA Yellow exactly. I don't support the continuation to Vaughan currently because there is no visible need... no glut of buses all following the same path and no major trip generator at VCC. The Yonge extension to Langstaff follows the route of most of the buses leaving Finch station including VIVA Blue. Which bus route in Mississauga would the subway extension to MCC from Kipling follow? Name it. If you can't name it then it is a new travel pattern. More MT buses head north on 427 than go west on Dundas... if the obvious best route for everyone is west on Dundas then why aren't most people going that way?

Where will the people on this subway extension be going and how are these people traveling now? There are only a few employers in Etobicoke around Islington station and the rest of the places people in Mississauga would be going would be all the way downtown which is arrived at much more quickly by the GO stations at Cooksville and Dixie which will have all-day service.

One more note: Ridership divided by route length means far more than ridership alone.
 
Sir Novelty Fashion said:
Wouldn't a direct connection to Mississauga be a better task for regional rail than a 45-minute long subway ride, anyway?
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Not if you're not going to Union or Kipling.

That said, you think the RHC to Union via Yonge subway will be much faster?

I don't know why everyone says 45 minutes is long. People making this commute right now spend faaaaaar more than 45 minutes getting from wherever in Mississauga they are to Kipling/Islington and beyond.

They would be HAPPY with 45 minutes. Especially since it takes them exactly where they want to go.

Scarberian, how can you support two subways to Scarborough Town Centre but not to Square One?

Yonge & Bloor is 24.4 km to Hurontario & Burnhamthorpe, 19.3 km to STC, 18.4 km to Langstaff Rd (don't really know which street to use there). So you can hardly argue that it's THAT much farther.

I really don't get you people on here. Doady or Drum118 would be more than happy to provide you with MT ridership numbers.
 
EnviroTO said:
Um hello, I'm talking about a subway to MCC. There are no plans to have the Dundas LRT turn up Hurontario to the MCC. Wonder why... perhaps they don't expect the majority of people on the Dundas LRT to go to the MCC. If you replace the Dundas LRT as planned with a subway where are the riders going to come from? There isn't any big trip generators on Dundas I can think of. The big trip generators in Mississauga are Pearson Airport, the Airport Business Park, and MCC.... none of which are on Dundas.

The University extension to York U followed the existing bus routes and VIVA Yellow exactly. I don't support the continuation to Vaughan currently because there is no visible need... no glut of buses all following the same path and no major trip generator at VCC. The Yonge extension to Langstaff follows the route of most of the buses leaving Finch station including VIVA Blue. Which bus route in Mississauga would the subway extension to MCC from Kipling follow? Name it. If you can't name it then it is a new travel pattern. More MT buses head north on 427 than go west on Dundas... if the obvious best route for everyone is west on Dundas then why aren't most people going that way?

Where will the people on this subway extension be going and how are these people traveling now? There are only a few employers in Etobicoke around Islington station and the rest of the places people in Mississauga would be going would be all the way downtown which is arrived at much more quickly by the GO stations at Cooksville and Dixie which will have all-day service.

One more note: Ridership divided by route length means far more than ridership alone.
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The subway would go along Dundas as it is the busiest corridor and has the most potential for intensification. It would veer north after serving Hurontario and then hit Burnhamthorpe.

With a subway ending at Mississauga City Centre, everyone in ALL of Mississauga would be a single bus ride away from the subway!
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Scarberian, how can you support two subways to Scarborough Town Centre but not to Square One?
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Those two subway extensions are about the same length as the one extension to Square One. If there wasn't a half-finished subway on Sheppard and a dying SRT line crudely grafted onto the Danforth line, maybe I wouldn't support two short extensions to STC, but they are both there.

Square One could be the final ultimate terminus of the Bloor line at some point in the future but it won't happen as long as Mississauga doesn't want it...if memory serves me correctly, you didn't even extend Bloor to Square One on the last fantasy map you made. It is farther out and it would not be along one cohesive and obvious corridor like Yonge...by running "cross-country" and not under one street, such a plan requires Sorbara-like interference or Melgalomania - the sorts of powers that Hazel has and refuses to wield here - to get underway (or perhaps it'd just need "planning arrows to MCC for the sake of suburban connectivity" to get underway...I'd say Metrolinx might propose something of that sort but they're trying to be innovative and subways are so old-fashioned).

Maybe I've just been waiting for someone to argue for a subway to Mississauga on *any* grounds other than jealousy, than Mississauga also deserving what other places have. It's easy to speculate on the potential success of a Toronto project that's under serious consideration and since detailed ridership figures are available, but it's harder to speculate on a subway to Mississauga since the bus routes do scatter, since the ridership figures are not easily available, and since a Bloor extension would parallel a GO line for 10 continuous kilometres.
 
First off, why does everyone keep saying that it will take so long to get downtown from Mississauga on the subway. Does everyone use the subway to just get downtown? A huge portion of subway riders don't use the subway to go downtown...
 
khristopher said:
First off, why does everyone keep saying that it will take so long to get downtown from Mississauga on the subway. Does everyone use the subway to just get downtown? A huge portion of subway riders don't use the subway to go downtown...
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Where are they going?
How many of them are going there?
What is the best method to serve them?
Are they going there in sufficient numbers to merit higher-order transit?

-----------------------------------------------------------

I haven't seen anyone here say that Mississauga doesn't merit a subway line. Instead, I've seen people question the shallow philosophy of "Mississauga needs a subway line... ANY subway line... because smaller cities are getting one". And a shared belief that, yes, 45 minutes and 28 stops is too long of a trip for many and a faster mode would be more appropriate.

Geez... what on earth is it that makes people think "we don't want a faster mode, we want a slower one!". I would think that being provided a choice between one mode that takes 25 minutes and has room and another that takes 45 minutes and is crowded that the choice would be simple. Apparently not.

My biggest beef is that a subway line wouldn't just be slow and crowded, but that it wouldn't served Mississauga properly. There's not much more Scarborough beyond STC... travel a bit further and you hit Rouge Park and greenbelt lands. But Mississauga has thousands of people beyond MCC and there's still farmland out there slated for growth, plus there's MAJOR employment lands. Erin Mills, Streetsville, Meadowvale... they NEED good transit service.

Stop with the overly simplistic view of "two shopping malls on the edge of a highway in the middle of the city" and start thinking of how MCC and STC differ.
- For one, there's a heck of a lot more people living in the MCC area than in the STC area. What does this mean for the Bloor line that is ALREADY busier than the Danforth line?
- What will be better for attracting jobs to the MCC area... a 25-minute express trip to the financial core of the country with connections to the entire region, or a 45-minute milk run?
- Look at the Transportation Tomorrow Origin-Destination survey for the Greater Toronto Area. Mississauga residents are more likely to work in downtown Toronto than Markham residents, who instead are more likely to work in North York or Scarborough (though a glance at GO ridership numbers and service levels would make this clear).

If you base all your assumptions on a belief that everyone has an irrational hatred of Mississauga, then that is all you will ever see. Instead, consider that some people on this forum really do want a transit solution that actually deals with the reality of Mississauga's geography (including Mississauga west of Hurontario), is attractive to transit users and car drivers alike, increases the desirability of Mississauga's City Centre, is financially feasible, and accounts for future growth.
 
One of the reasons that people seem to be clamoring for a subway to Mississauga over improved GO connections is that GO just isn't seen as frequent enough to be as convenient as a subway. Once GO finally ramps up their frequencies to REX (S-Bahn) style service, no one will care much about a Mississauga subway. Service from Square 1 (Cooksville) to Union every 10 - 15 minutes via Kipling and Dundas West would solve this situation.

42
 
interchange42 said:
One of the reasons that people seem to be clamoring for a subway to Mississauga over improved GO connections is that GO just isn't seen as frequent enough to be as convenient as a subway. Once GO finally ramps up their frequencies to REX (S-Bahn) style service, no one will care much about a Mississauga subway. Service from Square 1 (Cooksville) to Union every 10 - 15 minutes via Kipling and Dundas West would solve this situation.

42
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Cooksville to Union trips, even 10-15 minutes, are not very convenient except for people who can already take the Port Credit GO train. If the Milton line is diverted to Square One, which would have to be underground anyway, and it ran every 10-15 minutes, THAT might be an acceptable alternative. It's still not a convenient connection to say Dufferin or something mid-way along the Bloor line, but one could transfer to Kipling for that.

That said, I personally don't see 10-15 minute service from Square One to Union any time soon. There's no way in hell they're going to diver the Milton line with a tunnel while they're still using the bilevels. One, they're freaking huge, two they're diesel.

Overall I think a subway to Mississauga would be cheaper, when you take into account the need for diverting the Milton line, probably rebuilding Erindale entirely, a new MCC train stop, new rolling stock, electrification, etc etc.

Ideally, we would have both. If you need a quick ride to downtown, take the SuperGO. If your destination is Cawthra or Dixie or Sherway or Keele or Dufferin, take the TTC. And it would all be fare-integrated.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
That said, I personally don't see 10-15 minute service from Square One to Union any time soon. There's no way in hell they're going to diver the Milton line with a tunnel while they're still using the bilevels. One, they're freaking huge, two they're diesel.
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One, RER runs bilevels in tunnels, so there is no reason why we can't look to them for inspiration. Two, the coaches themselves are not diesel - the locomotive is. Replace it with a AEM-7 and problem solved. Don't like that? Stick a motor into a bilevel and you get an EMU or a DMU capable of pulling two or three coaches.

Self propelled trains of six car bilevel EMUs arranged with a power car on either end should be more than enough capacity and pulling power.
 
NJ Transit and AMT ordered those multilevels from BBD specifically to run them in low-height tunnels and with dual mode locos to boot.
 
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