[RedRocket191]

Seeeeeee.

I told y'all that she was doing her job!

 

[MisterF]

TTC doesn't want DRL likely due to the operations costs.

Pumping capacity on the Yonge line only adds cost of drivers and maintenance workers (more trains). Stations, tunnel maintenance, etc. are all fixed costs.

Yonge line subsidizes a good portion of the network today but with capacity enhancements within the line itself, it could subsidize it to a much larger extent.

But the DRL will make a profit as well.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Ironic, no? Not only can we thank York Region for bringing the subway to York University and making it possible to extend NYCC to Steeles, but we can now thank York Region for potentially fast tracking the DRL. 100% of the subway construction that will occur in the 416 area between 2000 and 2020 will be a direct result of York Region's transit plan.

And what about Toronto Council? Well, it managed to bring us a bastardized transit line on St. Clair, and possibly a few streetcar lines on the suburbs.

Perhaps Mary Francis Turner, head of York Region Transit, should run for chair of the TTC. She'd get my vote!

It's especially ironic that York Region's efforts largely triggered the recent transit funding boost and will spur the growth of urban areas in the 416 because York Region was always the bastard child of the Toronto region. Their transit planning seems even more successful when compared to Toronto's transit boondoggles.

But the DRL will make a profit as well.

And it'll ramp up transit use in the areas it runs through, adding more riders' revenue to the TTC's farebox. It most certainly won't be the same pool of riders transferring onto the DRL...I'm sure a station near Front & Spadina alone would lure umpteen new riders per hour onto the TTC from CityPlace.

 

[rbt]

But the DRL will make a profit as well.

You're awfully confident of that.

Transfers from Bloor/Danforth are not new funds, nor are transfers from streetcars.

You need new riders to get new funding. I don't think you will find ~50,000 new riders, people who did not take TTC today, on day 1. Most of the covered area already takes TTC.

Probably happen indirectly via growth on Yonge and Bloor/Danforth eventually and increased density along the new corridor, but not on day 1. Anticipate a fare increase or equivalent property tax/income/sales tax funded subsidy when it opens.

It's still a good idea but I can see why a service which begs for funds from 4 different sources (feds, province, city, users) each year wouldn't want a dramatic increase of operating expenses without any real source of additional funding.


Province and City coffers will probably get a substantial boost in funding out of the gate. Even Sheppard was successful at paying for itself in short order -- but not on the TTC's books which is what TTC management is responsible for.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

If anything, a DRL would draw more "new" riders to the system than a Yonge Extension. Many people I know who live downtown don't bother with a Metropass because the streetcars are so "useless" and it's often faster to walk or bike everywhere. Building a DRL would make transit service much more attractive to people most likely to take transit.

The Yonge extension, on the other hand, is mainly converting people from one mode to the other (current Viva riders to subway). There's no guarantee that new riders will flock onto their infrequent local buses connecting them to the subway, because that will remain the achilles heel of transit service in the 905. The only guaranteed "new" ridership would be the 2,500 or so passengers that will have a new park and ride lot at Bunker-Longbridge Station.

 

[Chuck]

DRL's new riders will come from people in transit friendly areas who are turned off of the current TTC due to streetcars and subway congestion. Yonge's new riders will come from hundreds of thousands of people living within a few kilometres of the extension and now having more reliable local transit. Don't pit one against the other.

And as for cost, so what if both transit projects are expensive and have high operating costs? It's foolish to believe that its healthy for a transit system to operative at 80% cost recovery. The TTC did that in the 90s only by cutting service, halting expansion, and losing 100,000,000 riders per year in the process. Simply by dropping from 80% recovery in the 1990s to 70% recovery today, the TTC was able to guarantee 30 minute service on all bus routes, open up the Sheppard subway, and guarantee service on all routes until 1 am. Imagine how much better the TTC would be if it had enough funding to be able to operate at 50% cost recovery like the most transit systems.

 

[unimaginative2]

There's no guarantee that new riders will flock onto their infrequent local buses connecting them to the subway, because that will remain the achilles heel of transit service in the 905.

That's a very good point. I really hope that YRT implements TTC-style connecting bus routes when the subway is built. Development is no less dense north of Steeles than south. There's no reason (other than the double fare) why just as many people wouldn't be attracted to ride the bus.

 

[Dan416]

I have to admit York's success at getting two subway lines and forcing the TTC to build another (the DRL) have me a little jealous. Look at Mississauga and we have "rapid transit" along the 403 as a BRT, and planned along Hurontario and Dundas. While everyone WANTS LRT, there's murmurs that the city will shy away from the high cost of LRT and go for BRT instead. And the city has no plans for any subway extension to MCC. It makes me embarrassed to live here.

 

[nfitz]

Yes, Mississauga is a shame. York is getting 2 subway lines, and Durham is obviously too far away, had Hazel put her mind to it, I'm sure she could have gotten the Bloor Line extended to MCC - and perhaps even a Hurontario subway under consideration.

 

[drum118]

I have to admit York's success at getting two subway lines and forcing the TTC to build another (the DRL) have me a little jealous. Look at Mississauga and we have "rapid transit" along the 403 as a BRT, and planned along Hurontario and Dundas. While everyone WANTS LRT, there's murmurs that the city will shy away from the high cost of LRT and go for BRT instead. And the city has no plans for any subway extension to MCC. It makes me embarrassed to live here.

I have to laugh when I hear council talk about LRT when I known there is and has been a push for BRT as they think it cheaper to built and operate.

The other push has been Brampton BRT, as the city sees away of reducing service to Brampton with Brampton assuming the long haul section.

Under Metrolinx, BRT is the way to go since Brampton does not nor will have for 20 year+ the ridership to support 5 minute headway. Since Metrolinx is looking at a single ride from one end to the other end, busines case will support a BRT line only.

Considering there will be no money in the account when building the RT on Hurontaio cause by the money been suck up by under performing subway extension, LRT will not see the light of day in Mississauga and Hamilton. BRT will be the call of the day.

Every new thing that surface from this time on and gets money thrown at it, which project gets move to the 25 year plus list.

The DRL will show up in the 15 year plan come July, but it maybe built in phases. Same thing can happen to the Yonge extension.

TTC needs to be more open about Transit City cost as that extra cost will take money away from the RTP.

One thing that can happen for Hurontario as well Hamilton is P3 building and operating those LRT routes. Same can happen for the DRL.

I have not heard a peep out of Hazel on any Mississauga transit project or the system itself were she has asked for extra money other than the 403 BRT.

If York hell bent on a subway, let them pickup the extra cost of the yard as well funding the money to built it consider York is already on record saying they would do if the money is not there. Since they want to use the subway as a tool to develop land alone the line. Development charges would be charge to cover the full 100% funding of the extension north of Steeles including service charges to service the borrowing of funds.

As much as I like to see a subway out to MCC, LRT will have to do for now.

Added this: http://www.mississauga.ca/file/COM/ETransitServicesBRTProject.pdf

 

[lordmandeep]

I would imagine the Steeles station near York would have a massive parking lot.

It would become sort of like Go station of sort.


I think if these stations have good bus connections and ample parking, they could put a lot of suburbanites on those subway lines.

 

[xtremesniper]

I have to ask though, as much as this question belongs in some sort of DRL topic than here...

Would the DRL require a transfer or would every other train on the BD line just take another track and go southbound? I'd imagine this method would be the best implementation (less transfering, which means you don't have to redevelop the platforms to support the huge numbers of people just waiting to switch to the DRL), but I can also see this as being confusing for a lot of riders who are not familiar with this kind of transit model.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what the MTA in New York does? It would actually make those "next train" signs useful, because the route may actually take you to a different destination!

 

[Chuck]

I have to ask though, as much as this question belongs in some sort of DRL topic than here...

Would the DRL require a transfer or would every other train on the BD line just take another track and go southbound? I'd imagine this method would be the best implementation (less transfering, which means you don't have to redevelop the platforms to support the huge numbers of people just waiting to switch to the DRL), but I can also see this as being confusing for a lot of riders who are not familiar with this kind of transit model.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what the MTA in New York does? It would actually make those "next train" signs useful, because the route may actually take you to a different destination!

The New York model is based on express tracks, local tracks, and different subway routes using the same subway line (kind of like different bus routes using the same street). If in New York, the Bloor line might have express and local trains, and would be 4 tracks wide. At the intersection with the DRL, local trains would stay on Bloor while express trains might branch off to form express tracks on the DRL. Meanwhile, local service on the DRL might be provided by local trains that originated at Don Mills and Steeles. Therefore, south of Bloor, the DRL would be served by local trains running between downtown and Don Mills, and express Bloor trains running between downtown and Kennedy.

This idea would work well in New York where the system is set up that way, but in Toronto this would be confusing, and would result in poor service on both the DRL and the central Bloor line.

 

[xtremesniper]

The New York model is based on express tracks, local tracks, and different subway routes using the same subway line (kind of like different bus routes using the same street). If in New York, the Bloor line might have express and local trains, and would be 4 tracks wide. At the intersection with the DRL, local trains would stay on Bloor while express trains might branch off to form express tracks on the DRL. Meanwhile, local service on the DRL might be provided by local trains that originated at Don Mills and Steeles. Therefore, south of Bloor, the DRL would be served by local trains running between downtown and Don Mills, and express Bloor trains running between downtown and Kennedy.

This idea would work well in New York where the system is set up that way, but in Toronto this would be confusing, and would result in poor service on both the DRL and the central Bloor line.

I remember reading somewhere a year or so ago that the TTC used to operate different routes on one subway track. They had Bloor Danforth trains that would actually veer southbound at Yonge, go down and back up the U, and then continue westbound at Spadina or St. George. It was a trial run and it ultimately failed because it was confusing too many people.

Honestly though, I think that's the way the system should be operated. It would alleviate a lot of the stress that is seen at the transfer stations along Bloor, and it could even solve a lot of the problems that people who are advocating for the DRL are fighting for.

But shh, don't let people know that. They want their reasons for another subway line. To be clear, I'm in support of the DRL but I think it's not the only option for relieving stress on the transfer points.

 

[CDL.TO]

Geez. When accusing other people of being willfully ignorant (because they're fanboys or something) you should at very least take the time to figure out what the actual facts are yourself.

What was the actual between-lines operation, where did it run?
Why was it cancelled?
Are there any reasons why it wouldn't be possible to bring back such a service today, and hence why you don't hear people speaking about it any more?