RedRocket191 said:
There's no question that the GO line serves a much more narrow trip pattern than those who would be served by a subway. The way I see it, it's there, it has the potential to divert 8000 people or more per hour away from the subway if upgraded properly, so why not? An end-to-end trip will be faster by GO and you'll break even if your wait + subway trip is less than 10 minutes.

The lakeshore line seems to operate very well with the frequency of trains it runs, so i don't see why it's not possible to go better than every 10 minutes.

There are bigger priorities than upgrading the GO line, but it can help deal with the triple convergence that will occur even after the DRL is built.
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Since when is it one or the other? No one has ever said don't upgrade the GO lines. Maybe it can run every 8 minutes, or 5 minutes, I don't know, but the higher the frequency, the higher the chance it won't stick to a schedule, which does affect travel time.

People like Ansem seem to think that terminus stations are the only places that a transit line/extension will serve, and the majority of riders along the way tend to get forgotten. The Yonge extension may run out into and serve "the suburbs" but it's definitely one place in "the suburbs" where improved GO service can only do so much and cannot replace the subway extension.
 
I never said it's one or the other. I'm saying it's another tool to add capacity in the corridor. That's been my point all along.

It's not going to replace the subway extension. It could, and I believe should supplement it. As for the issue of frequency, that's true of any rail-based system, be it light, heavy or underground - so I'm not exactly sure how it factors in to the equation.
 
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You did say "so why not?" but no one in this thread (or, probably in any thread, ever) has suggested GO lines not be upgraded. The arguments were not against GO, but against the belief that GO can do what the Yonge extension can ('so why extend the subway to a GO station?').

It factors into the equation by making GO even less useful to the area the Yonge extension would serve in general and to RHC station users going anywhere north of King in particular...and it was Ansem's statement that GO could be upgraded in lieu of the subway extension that started all the travel time comparisons.
 
Well then to end all the confusion let me make it clear:

I do not think that a GO expansion will replace the need to extend the subway.

I think that it should be done in addition to the extension because it offers a quick-win capacity improvement for trips that begin at or above the terminus and end in the central business district.

I recognize that this isn't a majority of trips but I believe it is a significant number because I believe the break-even line is further north than King. In my opinion, it lies much closer to Bloor.

Finally, I believe that improved frequencies on the GO line, if managed properly, will not cause any more bunching than would occur on any other high-frequency rail line (like the subway).
 
I agree that the GO should supplement the subway extension to alleviate pressure on the line where it can. If someone IS living in Richmond Hill or nearby and IS going to travel exclusively to Union or King stations, then by all means they should take the GO. It's faster (on most days) and more comfortable (no sardine canning most of the time).

But I definitely agree that the GO just isn't very useful to those who don't live very close to a station. Personally, I live in between 3 GO train stations between 2 lines. Guess which station I use? None. It's inconvenient, it's expensive, and it has too many problems in the winter months.

They have a lot of work to do before I take the GO regularly. Not only that, but the YRT and the GO need to work together to make better feeder bus routes into the stations. The routes (and their operating times) they have now are a complete joke, doing nothing but further discouraging people without a car from using the GO.
 
I would like to see day where I can go just come to a GO station and a train comes eventually like on the Subway...
 
what else did you think he meant .........

Yes, it's no fun - it all depends on your luck in the day.
Sometimes because of minor bunching with the subways (which does occur) even at 6-7pm you'll need to stand up at least to Bloor and sometimes after.

I've even had a few days where after leaving downtown around 8:30-9 I've had to stand until Eglinton.

Another thing is the reverse direction which people don't talk about - it's definitely a lot more busier going the opposite way then it used to.
 
When the RH line gets upgraded, travel time to/from the core will be faster then subway from RHC.

If one takes a good look at numbers, at the end of the day 20-30 years from now, there will be a need of a subway.

Allowing for Metrolinx own number of 8,800 peak riders for 2031, you need a 3 unit LRT leaving RHC every 57 seconds. This does not allow for what is taking place south of RHC. It does not allow for running on the surface or underground.

Clearly it shows we are into subway area that running every 90-105 seconds.

This show how far TTC is off on their break line between bus to BRT to LRT to SRT to Subway. Also, it show TTC looking at crush load 8 when it should be peak to crush 1.

I only see Clark as the first area to support a station on day one. Langstaff/longbridge may have some development by 2017, but not enough to support a station then or in 2031.

Royal Orchard is a very risky station location even in 2031.

Cummer will not see any redevelopment until 2031 and better to rough in a station now. Steeles will see more development before Cummer.

One only has to look at the Finch area to see this development pattern.
 
Repost from DRL Advocacy Thread:

Toronto City Council has voted to pass its motion supporting the Yonge North EA, however, with two important amendments. First, a recommendation that Metrolinx move the Downtown Relief Line into its 15-year plan, and further to that, to place it ahead of the Yonge Subway extension to Richmond Hill. Second, it recommended that TTC staff do a detailed study (and possibly EA) for the Downtown Relief Line.

Third, Councillor Minnan-Wong moved to change the name of the Downtown "Rapid Transit" Line to something more imaginative.

Things are looking up for the DRL!
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I would question why everyone is focussed on a possible theoretical eventual upgrade to the RH GO line being of most use to Richmond Hill itself. Being able to take a newfangled electrified often-running train would no doubt help move Richmond Hill and, perhaps, some north Thornhill/east Vaughan/west Markham traffic off the Yonge line, for sure.

But an upgraded RH line would -- assuming fare integration, which you kind of have to -- be at least as useful to east Willowdale and maybe to Scarborough.

Think of all those constant Sheppard and Finch buses. Now think of an express route from Finch & Leslie to Union. And an express route from Leslie station, on the Sheppard line, to Union. Wouldn't that take at least as many people off the Yonge subway, if not more?

Sure, the TTC/GO integration sucks right now. We need fare integration. We'd need to combine the Leslie TTC and Oriole GO stations. We'd need to do something like have Finch buses incorporate Old Cummer into the route. But surely these things are no less realistic projects than the Yonge line signals upgrade, north Yonge extension, building of a DRL, etc.?
 
imo a lot of the Toronto GO stations are underused.

Like in Weston, you could get to downtown in 15 min.

If there was proper Bus connections, I would expect more people would come on.
 
RedRocket191 said:
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I recognize that this isn't a majority of trips but I believe it is a significant number because I believe the break-even line is further north than King. In my opinion, it lies much closer to Bloor.
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I mean no offense whatsoever, however I have to say that you appear very unfamiliar with the commute between Richmond Hill and downtown Toronto. The subway ride from Langstaff to Bloor would take not more than 25 minutes. The GO train is 35 minutes just to get to Union, and doesn't even include the 15 minute transfer plus subway ride to get to Bloor. In a best case scenario, the GO train would take twice as long as the subway to get to Bloor, but more realistically a full 30 minutes longer. You can save an hour per day just by using the subway.

But an upgraded RH line would -- assuming fare integration, which you kind of have to -- be at least as useful to east Willowdale and maybe to Scarborough.
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This is one of the best statements in this entire thread. By GO, downtown Toronto is 20 minutes from Leslie and Sheppard, whereas by TTC, it's about 35. In fact, the only people for whom the Richmond Hill line actually can save time for is those who live in Toronto (northeast North York and northwest Scarborough). The number one reason to upgrade service on the Richmond Hill line would be to benefit Torontonians whose trip downtown currently includes a long bus ride and a transfer at Yonge and Sheppard.
 
I'm not basing my number on the present day. I'm basing it on Metrolinx's proposed numbers. With upgraded tracks and equipment they claim that the line can average 80 km/h. This gives you a 20-25 minute trip based on the distance - about 10 minutes shorter than the proposed number for the subway (40 km/h). I routinely go from stepping off the GO train at Union to arriving at Ryerson by subway in less than 10 minutes. That's my rationale for the numbers I've quoted.

We've got to compare future conditions to future conditions or there's no point in making the comparison.
 
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Fair enough.

To Metrolinx I say this: 80 km/hr is not possible on that line without either massive destruction of conservation land to straighten the tracks, reinstating previously removed tracks in residential Don Mills, or tunneling. All options would either cost billions of dollars, or be impossible due to NIMBYism. 80 km/hr? Fat chance.
 
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