[sacred]

Could this open in phases? I’m just thinking that an early Steeles opening would probably be a great benefit and given current trends may not overload the BY as much as previously anticipated

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Could this open in phases? I’m just thinking that an early Steeles opening would probably be a great benefit and given current trends may not overload the BY as much as previously anticipated

Nope.

 

[Northern Light]

Could this open in phases? I’m just thinking that an early Steeles opening would probably be a great benefit and given current trends may not overload the BY as much as previously anticipated

Nope.

In terms of engineering and practicality? YES.

Politically, probably not.

*****

It would make abundant sense to build the chunk to Steeles as phase 1; and then subject to coming in on budget and time, the contract includes options for extensions.

This is a commonly used process through much of the world; and Toronto used to do it too.

Bloor-Danforth (Line 2) grew in chunks from Keele-Woodbine, to quickly add extensions to Islington and Warden.

Line 1's northern extension from Eglinton wasn't supposed to go to Finch in one push when it was started, that decision was taken while construction was under way.

 

[W. K. Lis]

North York Centre station was built after the fact and one reason for side platforms. Hording had to be place over the tracks while the station was being built,

Unless stations are now part of a development on day one, they are very expensive stand alone stations until something gets built to support one.

If the designers and builders include a "rough-in" for later stations, they can adjust the tunnels to allow for a later centre station platform. Allow for a straight station box to be inserted later. Allow for an emergency exit for example, where the station will be.

 

[sacred]

Nope.

Great reply

In terms of engineering and practicality? YES.

Politically, probably not.

*****

It would make abundant sense to build the chunk to Steeles as phase 1; and then subject to coming in on budget and time, the contract includes options for extensions.

This is a commonly used process through much of the world; and Toronto used to do it too.

Bloor-Danforth (Line 2) grew in chunks from Keele-Woodbine, to quickly add extensions to Islington and Warden.

Line 1's northern extension from Eglinton wasn't supposed to go to Finch in one push when it was started, that decision was taken while construction was under way.

What is the main political problem?

 

[Tuck]

Great reply

What is the main political problem?

Pretty sure York Region wants this subway extension more than Toronto does. Extending it to Steeles (still in Toronto) first and telling YR to wait would be a bit of a slap in the face.

 

[Undead]

Great reply

What is the main political problem?

The politicos can't bank on votes from ridings who don't get their promised stop(s).

 

[Northern Light]

The politicos can't bank on votes from ridings who don't get their promised stop(s).

Dead on.

Add to that, it might be seen (rightly or wrongly to delay some development in York Region, which might put off certain developers who might have a fair bit of political heft.

 

[sacred]

What I’m trying to explore is fully funding the entire extension, and starting construction, but opening Steeles and the stations to the north asap. What’s the political problem there?

 

[asher__jo]

Interesting how Eglinton has lower average ridership than Sheppard-Yonge. It does have multitudes of bus routes and nearby density.

That's before Crosstown line opens though. I expect that to change.

 

[asher__jo]

In the EWCE (Eglinton West Crosstown Extension) video someone posted, the reason Metrolinx claimed for not using cut-and-cover was road impacts as well as utility relocations.

Ignoring the specific case of EWCE, someone should look at the cost of doing all of that relocation, reducing station cost, and being able to build more neighbourhood stations vs. the tunnel-boring alternative. I don’t have a background in transit or civil engineering, so I can’t tell what wins out in $$$ terms. Also, I get the sense that politicians are terrified of the public getting up in arms, unlike back in the day, where plebs just had to deal.

I agree, however I think we've seen the end of cut and cover due to a desire to appease the masses.

 

[Rainforest]

Yonge is exceptionally wide north of Finch and would lend itself well to cut-and-cover construction. The original section of line 1 was built with cut-and-cover from Union to Eglinton. And even though it would be disruptive in the short term, it is possible to temporarily deck over sections, and it would reduce the overall construction time. Stations would be shallower, reducing access time and making them significantly cheaper than the ~$500 million a pop currently budgeted. The only disadvantage I see is that it doesn't lend itself well to the curvy route outside the street grid to join the Richmond Hill GO line.

Cut-and-cover for the whole length of Yonge may not be possible; both because of the curvy route and the desire to go under the East Don where it crosses Yonge. Plus, Yonge between Doncaster and Clark goes over the CN mainline; not sure if cut-and-cover will work for that configuration.

But cut-and-cover just from Finch to Steeles - why not. Finch station isn't very deep. And if the Yonge / Steeles intersection has to be dug up anyway in order to build a massive station there, then they can as well dig up the whole stretch from Hendon/Bishop to Steeles; that won't get much more disruprive, but might be completed much faster.

(The Yonge / Finch intersection will probably be spared either way, because the existing subway extends quite a bit north of Finch.)

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Federal Liberal has minority government - next Canadian federal election will take place on or before October 16, 2023
Thornhill: PC Peter Kent since 2008
Willowdale: Liberal Ali Ehsassi since 2015

Provincial PC has majority government - next Ontario general election will be held on or before June 2, 2022
Thornhill: PC Gila Martow since 20114 but PC since 2003
Willowdale: PC Stan Cho since 2018

Since politics play into funding these large infrastructure projects - if funding were to happen soon and it comes down to Cummer VS Clark Station:
- Cummer Station would likely win since Willowdale has winning representatives at both Provincial & Federal level

Politically,... Metrolinx (Provincial PC government) likely leaning towards Thornhill's Clark Station (PC both Provincial & Federal level) and requesting Feds to commit more money - to fund Willowdale's Cummer Station (Liberal Federally and PC Provincially).

Of course, after an election large infrastructure projects can be cancelled all together or severely cut in scope (PC Mike Harris cancelled Eglinton Subway and scaled down Sheppard STUBway)

It'll be interesting around here if Willowdale's Cummer Station isn't built,...
- Yonge St south of Cummer/Drewry is all lined up with development applications for condo towers!
- Yonge St north of Cummer/Drewry is really a question of density that'll be granted at OMB/LPAT VS Yonge Street North Secondary Plan
Bottomline, army of condos tower are coming to the Yonge & Cummer area - question is will new residents be taking TTC subway or driving,... driving along a reduced 4-lane TransformYonge - all the sudden the direct and indirect costs of TransformYonge lane reductions just increased significantly!!!

 

[Rainforest]

It'll be interesting around here if Willowdale's Cummer Station isn't built,...
- Yonge St south of Cummer/Drewry is all lined up with development applications for condo towers!
- Yonge St north of Cummer/Drewry is really a question of density that'll be granted at OMB/LPAT VS Yonge Street North Secondary Plan
Bottomline, army of condos tower are coming to the Yonge & Cummer area - question is will new residents be taking TTC subway or driving,... driving along a reduced 4-lane TransformYonge - all the sudden the direct and indirect costs of TransformYonge lane reductions just increased significantly!!!

Most of them will take the subway. Although it is a pain to walk 1+ km in rain or cold, that's not as much pain as driving in that area.

But they will complain, like a lot. Many of them are not future residents, but existing residents. They will be very "pleased" to find out that for all the construction pains, they got no new subway station closer than Finch, and their bus service got reduced from once in 3-6 min to once in 15-30 min

And some new applications may be withdrawn.

 

[ARG1]

Most of them will take the subway. Although it is a pain to walk 1+ km in rain or cold, that's not as much pain as driving in that area.

But they will complain, like a lot. Many of them are not future residents, but existing residents. They will be very "pleased" to find out that for all the construction pains, they got no new subway station closer than Finch, and their bus service got reduced from once in 3-6 min to once in 15-30 min

And some new applications may be withdrawn.

The thing is this type of argument could be made for any of the 3 stations. If the Cummer station is built, then the residents at Clark and Royal Orchard will start asking why are there no stations in York Region? The Royal Orchard people will be pissed that they're getting TBMs under their property and even potentially under their graveyard, yet the nearest station will be over a km away. Development plans exist for all of the minor stations, Cummer isn't exactly unique in this regard.