afransen
Senior Member
Think of the trees! Clearly, each tree is worth $1M, so avoided tree clearing justifies the extra billions to be spent on Eg W. It's not like trees grow on.... trees, right?
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
ARG1
Senior Member
I don't which is why I'm asking. Typically though the expensive part of boring isn't the TBMs but the deep stations. The boring process itself is actually quite cheap. Building TBM launch and pick up shafts are typically fairly pricy, and is the reason why Metrolinx abandoned the 2 TBM plan for SSE since building an extraction shaft at Lawrence East would've taken too long and would've been too expensive. Now granted, the case on Yonge Street is quite different since a bridge would be subsurface, however that then begs the question which is the engineering challenges of running a TBM so close to the surface (TBMs typically prefer digging in harder rock making subsurface TBMs challenging), so overall I can't say for sure that tunneling under would be cheaper, however I also cannot say that the bridge would be cheaper either. In terms of personal preference, I would prefer the bridge since it would give something interesting to look at while travelling through that section rather than just endless tunnels so its not like I'm shifting my view to be pro tunnels, and if it turns out that the bridge is cheaper, I'd be more than glad to support it.
I'm not too sure, mainly because of space. There really isn't any room for road expansion on Yonge Street for that corridor, and unlike a street like Morningside where usage is small enough where you can get away with 2 lane traffic, the traffic demand on Yonge is significantly higher and bus lanes would cause a lot of problems.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Are they complaining about the OL being elevated, or are they pointing out the ridiculousness of penny pinching with the OL, while this government simultaneously makes decisions like burying the Crosstown West at a cost of $5 Billion (a boondoggle of unprecedented scale in this province)
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TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I don't think it's nearly that bad - that they should have just built the bus lanes - but I agree with the larger point.
They plan based on politics and they plan based on budget; they don't really plan based on the transit. It will be VERY interesting to see which station makes the final cut. Do they give it to Clark, which Metrolinx's numbers show as the #1 choice? Do they give it to Cummer, to appease Toronto? Do they give it to Royal Orchard, to maximise the development potential of the site? What's the GOAL here? Is it actually to build the subway system that makes the most sense? Is it to build the cheapest thing that will still make most people happy?
This and the Scarborough line and the Ontario Line are all products of compromise. They've all gained and lost things along the way. I'm OK with some of the compromises we've seen here and less pleased with others but I think it's still clearly a net gain. Same goes for the Ontario Line. I'm more sceptical about Scarborough but, on balance, I'd say the same.
A couple of historical facts worth remembering:
-People like to "blame" York Region for ditching the bus lanes because they really wanted the subway. The truth is that they had little-to-no idea the subway was a thing until McGuinty announced it. It was literally a day or two before they were set to approve the Viva Yonge expropriations. Toronto was doing its own bus lanes, from Finch to Steeles, but the coordination between Viva and TTC wasn't so great.
-Royal Orchard was nixed fairly early on for not making sense. Now it's being considered in the same breath as Clark and Cummer. That's a testimony to Markham pushing to revive it but it's really about maximizing a few sites and is less a part of the contiguous corridor than the other stations, because of the valley and the proximity of the neighbourhood.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
From link.
The "green" joint OL-GO corridor will also be on the surface or elevated (bridged).
Amazing that how "old" (1998) Toronto has become "downtown" for many. Especially since the "original" City of Toronto in 1834 was from Bathurst Street in the west, Parliament in the east, a line 400 yards north of Queen (Lot) Street in the north and the lake in the south. The rest was "suburban".
From link.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Finch Station is located north of Finch Avenue, and the tunnel and tracks extend further north from the northern end of the platform. There shouldn't be more than 500 m left between the end of tracks and the Cummer/Drewry intersection.
Is it possible to place either the TBM launch shaft or the extraction shaft at the Yonge & Cummer/Drewry, and do the remaining 500 m between Cummer and Finch as cut-and-cover? Then there will be no need for a separate cavern to build the Cummer station ..
Is it possible to place either the TBM launch shaft or the extraction shaft at the Yonge & Cummer/Drewry, and do the remaining 500 m between Cummer and Finch as cut-and-cover? Then there will be no need for a separate cavern to build the Cummer station ..
nfitz
Superstar
How deep are the existing tail tracks? Were they TMB or cut-and-cover.
Almost sounds like Sheppard West, where the existing tail tracks extend all the way to the proposed station box for Senlac station.
Almost sounds like Sheppard West, where the existing tail tracks extend all the way to the proposed station box for Senlac station.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
The IBC says they need this at Finch:
A new underground triple box structure below Yonge Street (approximately 190m long x 20m wide, to be confirmed based on the Tunnel Design), and tying into the end of the existing tail track to form a double ended pocket track;
Does that make a difference? I don't know.
Either they didn't consider cut-and-cover or they dismissed it. Given the government's focus on corner cutting, I find it hard to imagine it was never even raised, if it was cheaper and/or faster. So either some bureaucrats at Metrolinx just shut it down because they don't like it, or it was deemed not feasible, either practically or due to cost. Either way, after a few kicks at the can with this project, I'd say it's beating a dead horse to hypothesize about it now.
allengeorge
Senior Member
Well, seeing as how cut-and-cover is off the table, and given the eye-watering increase in cost in how we run tunnelled projects I don't think we'll see major underground transit projects past this one. It'll be an NYC Second Ave situation.
Guess we're gonna have to get used to a lot more street-level, non-grade-separated transit in our future!
officedweller
Senior Member
So there'll only be 4 stations?
High Tech, Bridge and Steeles all seem to be chosen, so only one from the others shown?
Hopefully they will be roughed in for "future stations".
High Tech, Bridge and Steeles all seem to be chosen, so only one from the others shown?
Hopefully they will be roughed in for "future stations".
ARG1
Senior Member
Ye that seems to be the plan, build the rest when the money is available.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Apparently, the Sheppard to Finch section was built entirely using cut-and-cover: https://transittoronto.ca/subway/5105.shtml .
I don't know how deep they are, but they will need to connect to the new TBM-ed section somewhere. Could as well do that after the Cummer station.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Well, Metrolinx hasn't yet officially announced which 4-th station they are going to build - Clark, Cummer, or Royal Orchard. That means, the design details aren't set in stone. Enough push from the Willowdale local councilors / groups, and they might agree to add Cummer if it isn't too expensive.
Clark Station is the unofficial favorite, but I hope they do both Clark and Cummer.
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
I'm quite sure the local Willowdale Councillor and local groups will not be pushing for a Cummer Station - since the fear is it'll spur even more high-density developments! Currently Ghods' 5959 Yonge and YongWood's 5995 Yonge development proposals have Density greater than 12 FSI,... way more than the densities allowed within the North York Centre Secondary Plan area south of Cummer/Drewry with maximum density of 4.5FSI and 5.98FSI at prime corner lots with direct subway connections.
What the City and local Willowdale Councillor seeks is a firm decision on Cummer Station - one way or the other - so City Planning can properly plan for the Yonge corridor near Cummer/Drewry.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Thanks for the info.
But I would not be so sure about the preferences of the locals. That area has surprisingly high transit usage, even from the low-rise segments. My observations are pre-covid, but I expect everything to be about same post-covid.
Bus # 53 could depart the Finch Stn being full, and by the time it reaches Steeles, it would be only 3/4 or 2/3 full. Many locals would alight at the stops between Finch and Steeles. Bus # 125 could depart full and remain full untill it turns from Yonge to Drewry, but remain only 1/3 full by the time it reaches Bathurst. I didn't have a chance to observe # 42 Cummer, but wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of its riders board at Finch and alight by the time it reaches Bayview.
So, the situation might be quite different from the one around the would-be Willowdale station at Sheppard. If many locals rely on transit already, they will probably want a station.