[44 North]

Thanks for the info.

But I would not be so sure about the preferences of the locals. That area has surprisingly high transit usage, even from the low-rise segments. My observations are pre-covid, but I expect everything to be about same post-covid.

Bus # 53 could depart the Finch Stn being full, and by the time it reaches Steeles, it would be only 3/4 or 2/3 full. Many locals would alight at the stops between Finch and Steeles. Bus # 125 could depart full and remain full untill it turns from Yonge to Drewry, but remain only 1/3 full by the time it reaches Bathurst. I didn't have a chance to observe # 42 Cummer, but wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of its riders board at Finch and alight by the time it reaches Bayview.

So, the situation might be quite different from the one around the would-be Willowdale station at Sheppard. If many locals rely on transit already, they will probably want a station.

I think the locals are fine with a station. It was in the City's plans for well over a decade with little to no noted concern by residents. The issue is now there's no station... but we'll have to lobby for it (with only one being chosen)? Reading the Supplementary Analysis it comes across as an episode of the bachelor or something. Is it worth the effort to get tangled into that kind of political game?

Still want to bring home the lack of a bridge. It says in the report they'll be going at a "significant depth" under the river. We know a bridge works. We know the province previously stated they don't want to tunnel below the same river. So how deep is "significant"?

 

[afransen]

Maybe Metrolinx has just decided they don't want to do cut and cover ever again. They would have done well to at least justify why they didn't consider that approach when they are having to go so deep.

 

[Transportfan]

Clark Ave is 1km from Steeles Ave, Clark Ave runs from Dufferin to almost Bayview (doesn't connect). Folks living near Clark Ave away from Yonge are more likely to be using buses going to Steeles bus hub! Thus, Clark Station is mainly a "neighbourhood" type Station.

Since likely to lose Royal Orchard Station, and there will only be one station between Bridge Station (Hwy 407/7 and Steeles) better to place that station closer to middle like near Centre St and John St since:
- Centre St westward connects to Hwy 7 near Dufferin (red line west of Yonge in image)
- John St eastward, east of Woodbine becomes Esna Park Drive and Alden Rd, east of Warden become 14th Ave which extends to Pickering! (red line east of Yonge in image)
This creates a more "Regional" Thornhill Station with stronger east-west bus routes servicing a much larger catchment in Thornhill - into Vaughan and Markham

View attachment 306654

I always wondered why Markham doesn't just rename Esna Park, Alden, and 14th Ave. as John St, considering Esna Park is now basically two perpendicular streets, and the isolated numbered avenues make no sense (as well as being unwieldy).

I also find it odd that they weren't connected/widened to Centre St. across Yonge to create a new east-west arterial 50-odd years ago when few would have complained.

 

[Transportfan]

When does Mississauga get the subway they deserve.

Might have been in the cards if MCC was logically built by Dundas St. instead of out-of-the-way Burnhamthorpe Rd. The subway would have been aimed right at it.

 

[44 North]

Maybe Metrolinx has just decided they don't want to do cut and cover ever again. They would have done well to at least justify why they didn't consider that approach when they are having to go so deep.

Doesn't have to be cut/cover to go over the river, or some other shallower solution. Original plan was TBM and bridge.

Still want to tunnel but go under the river for political reasons like we have? Look south of York Mills. Line was tunneled both sides, goes under the river at insignificant depth (it's literally right above the tracks).

 

[Transportfan]

The whole concept of "heritage district" is ridiculous. This isn't Vieux Montréal or some UNESCO site, this is a mostly postwar suburb like any other in southern Ontario. "Heritage Conservation Districts" don't conserve individual buildings that might be of historical or architectural value, they just preserve the zoning (also a post-war construct) of neighbourhoods by saying "this is a single story detached neighbourhood in a booming megacity needs to be legally prevented from ever changing or densifying."

View attachment 307089

This is Yonge and John. I don't know what is more "historical", the Tim Hortons drive through/Scotiabank on the right or the strip mall on the left?

Maybe the station can be built and the whole "heritage district" thing revisited after shovels are in the ground.

The likely reason is that Thornhill isn't part of Toronto, and Markham and Vaughan aren't traditional cities that provide a psychological anchor for communities to be simply seen as neighborhoods. The "still-a-small-town" perception runs deep here, as it does in most 905 municipalities. Thornhill (or Woodbridge, Unionville, etc.) aren't viewed in the same way as Willowdale or Mimico within Toronto. Thornhill is still a distinct Bell rate centre and is listed separately in the phone book.

 

[Transportfan]

Is Newmarket the heart of York Region? No - but it's the geographical centre, and that's where the Regional HQ is built.

In a way though Yonge and 7, not Newmarket, is the heart of York as it's the central tripoint of the southern urban municipalities and located at the region's two busiest crossroads. It's at a periphery of the three, but that's an oddity of mass urbanization of a coreless region with no centrally-located traditional big city.

There was such a central city and suburbs in the old county, but they were hived off in 1953...

 

[Undead]

The likely reason is that Thornhill isn't part of Toronto, and Markham and Vaughan aren't traditional cities that provide a psychological anchor for communities to be simply seen as neighborhoods. The "still-a-small-town" perception runs deep here, as it does in most 905 municipalities. Thornhill (or Woodbridge, Unionville, etc.) aren't viewed in the same way as Willowdale or Mimico within Toronto. Thornhill is still a distinct Bell rate centre and is listed separately in the phone book.

Not really. I live in the area and when I need to tell someone from out of province/out of country where I'm from, I just say Toronto.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

In a way though Yonge and 7, not Newmarket, is the heart of York as it's the central tripoint of the southern urban municipalities and located at the region's two busiest crossroads. It's at a periphery of the three, but that's an oddity of mass urbanization of a coreless region with no centrally-located traditional big city.

There was such a central city and suburbs in the old county, but they were hived off in 1953...

I would concur. I mean, certainly there's a solid, consistent urban grid that continues from Toronto up to at least Highway 7 and it's amazing such a central intersection has been left as a nice, big, blank slate for a subway station and dense, urban neighbourhood. Really, we should be grateful to have this opportunity (I'm sure Metrus and Condor are!) that's been left alone thanks to some historical quirks, including the 407 corridor being protected for so long and Toronto using the current Silver City site as a jail farm into the 1980s.

It's also quirky because Vaughan is oriented to the west and Markham to the east, so neither really treats Yonge Street as central to their identities. This is, to your previous point, why Thornhill is so weird. It's the centre of south York Region and yet kind of the back-end of the two cities that it got divided up into. Accordingly, the residents of Thornhill see themselves as THORNHILL residents first and Vaughan or Markham residents second. (I might say I'm from Toronto if someone asks while I'm travelling, but within the GTA, I always say Thornhill. I never say Vaughan unless it's to clarify who my councillor is or something like that. I actually ran into some folks in Blue Jays jerseys in Los Angeles and, as an example, said I was from Thornhill, rather than Vaughan, assuming they were Torontonians. It turned out they were from Alberta, but Ontario expats who knew Thornhill anyway. If you say "Vaughan," people think of Woodbridge.)

But Richmond Hill's deputy mayor had the temerity to say this area was the heart of the GTHA - which is obvious grandstanding but also not totally insane, given that it's a site just outside Toronto, right on Yonge Street, already with strong transit connections to downtown - and it cause a little tempest in a teapot. Based on what I've seen in the news the last few days (and well before) , I'd take him over Toronto's deputy mayor in a heartbeat.

 

[Transportfan]

Not really. I live in the area and when I need to tell someone from out of province/out of country where I'm from, I just say Toronto.

Out of province and country maybe, but that's rather obvious. But within the Central Ontario people often refer to 905 communities as being where people say they're from and see them as more than neighborhoods:

You sure won't see a highway-style sign pointing to Weston at the corner of Albion and Weston Rds. in Toronto.

 

[Transportfan]

Thornhill is so weird. It's the centre of south York Region and yet kind of the back-end of the two cities that it got divided up into. Accordingly, the residents of Thornhill see themselves as THORNHILL residents first and Vaughan or Markham residents second.

People also say that for places that are not divided into different cities too, like Maple. You basically need to be part of a traditional city to not have these anarchisms.

 

[Undead]

More of a technical consequence of Toronto amalgamation, I would think.

Socially and culturally I think most people in the GTA "identify" as essentially Toronto or "close enough."

I really don't think this rarefied, theoretical discussion we're having captures much of the real reason it would be difficult to redevelop Thornhill's HCD.

The simplest answer is usually the best one: run of the mill nimbyism likely stands in the way of any substantial redevelopment in that area.

Out of province and country maybe, but that's rather obvious. But within the Central Ontario people often refer to 905 communities as being where people say they're from and see them as more than neighborhoods:

View attachment 307715

You sure won't see a highway-style sign pointing to Weston on Weston Rd in Toronto.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Some of this stuff is very abstract and organic. I grew up in Willowdale and put that or North York on my mail. North York was already part of Metro, I rode the TTC etc so was certainly a Torontonian but these identities were pretty fluid.

A lot of suburbs slapped together unrelated communities so Vaughan is Maple + Kleinburg + Woodbridge + Thornhill (with huge spaces in between that have since filled up) while Markham is Markham + Unionville + Thornhill, roughly (and Richmond Hill includes Oak Ridges, which probably has more to do with Aurora) . Thornhill has more in common with Willowdale than Woodbridge and the same can be said of how eastern Markham is more tied to Milliken than Thornhill. These are just the quirks of history and politics.

But as I've said all along, the primacy of Yonge Street in the GTA can't be ignored. It's the heart of the region and that's why it makes complete sense to take the subway across a border that doesn't mean much in the day-to-day lives of local residents, to a place where transit systems converge and the potential for intensification is huge. The devil's in the details, sure, but there's a lot of potential to tap.

 

[MrGoose]

Some of this stuff is very abstract and organic. I grew up in Willowdale and put that or North York on my mail. North York was already part of Metro, I rode the TTC etc so was certainly a Torontonian but these identities were pretty fluid.

A lot of suburbs slapped together unrelated communities so Vaughan is Maple + Kleinburg + Woodbridge + Thornhill (with huge spaces in between that have since filled up) while Markham is Markham + Unionville + Thornhill, roughly (and Richmond Hill includes Oak Ridges, which probably has more to do with Aurora) . Thornhill has more in common with Willowdale than Woodbridge and the same can be said of how eastern Markham is more tied to Milliken than Thornhill. These are just the quirks of history and politics.

But as I've said all along, the primacy of Yonge Street in the GTA can't be ignored. It's the heart of the region and that's why it makes complete sense to take the subway across a border that doesn't mean much in the day-to-day lives of local residents, to a place where transit systems converge and the potential for intensification is huge. The devil's in the details, sure, but there's a lot of potential to tap.

Why are Canadian suburbs so big and amalgamated relative to American suburbs? I don't know the history.

Why isn't Thornhill it's own little city?

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

So I just so happen to live in Thornhill and also work downtown Toronto, here’s my take of it. Thornhill is commonly used when discussing or chatting with other 905ers or people from York Region. If discussing with a Torontonian (416er) who’s nowhere close to the Steeles border, Thornhill is usually referenced as Vaughan which leads to the question about Woodbridge that in turn leads to clarification of Thornhill geographically. The common reference to Thornhill is “just on the other side of Steeles” or “just north of Steeles.” Thornhill is split between Markham and Vaughan when it comes to Provincial electoral ridings. Thornhill is classified as a district in both Markham and Vaughan municipal elections. But Thornhill is a single Federal riding if I remember correctly. Residents of Concord tend to reference themselves as either from Vaughan or Thornhill (neighbouring Thornhill).

Downtown Thornhill has lately been developing its own identity of being in the area of Bathurst and Centre St encompassing Promenade Mall. This is where a lot of high density development has been zoned, where a major bus terminal is located and on the Viva corridor. Thornhill (Disera Dr and Centre St) is roughly about 15 mins to VMC and 15 mins to a Finch Stations by bus.