Tolls on the municipal level and higher gas taxes on the provincial level could give us the extra money to build real rapid transit around the city. Is there something wrong with being a leader in public transit, like Madrid? Why simply accept the status quo, when it's so mediocre?

No one's saying we need 100 extra kilometres of subway. But to maximize connectivity between city centres and expand the network downtown where it's extremely well used at this point today is only reasonable. To maintain stations so that it doesn't look like chunks of the ceiling are going to fall off soon is an expected standard, not some European luxury.

We need to look toward an ideal subway and GO system and consider every way possible of making it a reality incrementally.
 
Very narrow thinking and view. It was BRT or Subway from day one as they knew the subway would be lost if LRT was on the table.

The current EA is so narrow in scoop now that it cannot look outside the box or how it will fit into the big picture.

The York folks are car folks so they didn't want anything taking away lanes since York believes in 6 car lanes where TO is mostly 4 lanes. Why is HWY 7 going to be 10 lanes for BRT?

Except that Yonge Street between Clark and Highway 7 is only 4 lanes...
 
200 km of subway??? Wow, if only we had about 8 million people like New York City! With 2.5 million people in Toronto ...
You can't just look at political boundaries (and if you think you can, look at the City of London, over 400 km of underground, and a population of only 8,000 people).

The Toronto census area is over 5,000,000 people, and the Greater Golden Horseshoe area that GO serves is over 8,000,000. Compare again to Greater London which is 7,500,00 and London with the home counties which is 15,000,000.

So we are about 1/2 the size of London with 1/10th of the transit.
 
So we are about 1/2 the size of London with 1/10th of the transit.

We're 1/4 the size of Mumbai with about 6 times as much metro.


Yes, I realize Mumbai has substantial plans for 2020 but those are not in place today. Just being a pain in the ass mostly. Their 2020 plans still only give them about 30% more metro than Toronto.
 
We're 1/4 the size of Mumbai with about 6 times as much metro.
While my transit experience in Mumbai is limited to the shuttle between the International and Domestic terminals (which are on opposite sides of the runways ... imagine if Terminal 3 at Pearson was on Brittania Road instead of where it is now) that was enough to see that Mumbai has other issues it needs to deal with than just transit!

On the other hand their modal split for transit if almost 90%. Their commuter rail system carries almost as many passengers in a week, as our does in a year. And their metro, despite not yet being open, is planned to be twice as long as our is, in only 12 years (though on-time delivery would be shocking). In addition to the Metro, they are also constructing 35 km of monorail, with an average speed of 31 km/hr.
 
Yonge North BCA

Very narrow thinking and view. It was BRT or Subway from day one as they knew the subway would be lost if LRT was on the table.

Does anybody know why only the Executive Summary of the BCA was released, not the full report? It would be nice to see the detailed numbers. I guess a lot of people around here do not have much confidence in the accuracy of ridership projections. But without transparency in the BCA process we are left with the kind of If-You-Build-It-He-Will-Come mysticism that some people seem to favour :)

Certainly I would say the BCA is disingenuous in not reporting a benefit-cost ratio for the BRT option. The stated reason is that “the disbenefits of unserviced demand have not been included.†What do they think, people who don't get on the bus are going to starve the death? Riders not served count as a zero benefit relative to the base case.

But one presumes the real reason is that otherwise only Option 3 would have BCR>1.
 
The stated reason is that “the disbenefits of unserviced demand have not been included.†What do they think, people who don't get on the bus are going to starve the death?

Presumably they think that people who don't get on the bus will take private cars, the displacement of which they perhaps think is one of public transit's purposes -- who knows.
 
It was BRT or Subway from day one as they knew the subway would be lost if LRT was on the table.

I don't think so. They were evaluating whether to run BRT from Newmarket to Finch Station to connect with the subway, or to run BRT from Newmarket to Langstaff to connect to a subway extension. LRT all the way from Newmarket to Finch Station was ruled out because the expense of LRT to Newmarket wasn't going to be funded so there was no point looking at it. A BRT to LRT to Subway transfer would have reduced the quality of service for most York Region Yonge Street passengers.
 
For one thing, all the bus routes would still need to continue along Yonge to Finch station...

How is that different from the BRT option?

Of the ~7 TTC routes that Finch sees 2 (Finch E and W) definately will remain, and of the remaining 5, 3 are lightly travelled. They probably wouldn't benefit all that much from a BRT, LRT, or subway anyway.

Of the other systems serving Finch. Brampton's rte 77 could/should probably be shifted to Downsview. GO could probably benefit from moving it's hub to Langstaff (shock!!! what do you mean put a bus hub where our train station is?). YRT/VIVA could also move their hub to Langstaff/RHC and the LRT if built long enough (say up to Richmond Hill GO) could eliminate much of the routes operating on Yonge.

Point is, everything that can be done in the subway option can be done in the LRT option. Why wasn't it included? And more specifically why was only BRT presented as the glass jawed contender to the, apparently, predetermined subway option.
 
How is that different from the BRT option?

Of the ~7 TTC routes that Finch sees 2 (Finch E and W) definately will remain, and of the remaining 5, 3 are lightly travelled. They probably wouldn't benefit all that much from a BRT, LRT, or subway anyway.

Of the other systems serving Finch. Brampton's rte 77 could/should probably be shifted to Downsview. GO could probably benefit from moving it's hub to Langstaff (shock!!! what do you mean put a bus hub where our train station is?). YRT/VIVA could also move their hub to Langstaff/RHC and the LRT if built long enough (say up to Richmond Hill GO) could eliminate much of the routes operating on Yonge.

Point is, everything that can be done in the subway option can be done in the LRT option. Why wasn't it included? And more specifically why was only BRT presented as the glass jawed contender to the, apparently, predetermined subway option.

If they had wanted to build an LRT line, it would have been "predetermined," too, just like the Transit City lines are predetermined, just like BRT and GO projects are all predetermined. It's a subway extension...extending the subway is the *only* option. That's what a subway extension is...an extension of the subway.

Terminating bus routes at an LRT along Yonge only a few kilometres from the subway is a terrible idea that will worsen service and drive people to drive. The truth is that all of the routes would benefit from a subway extension (even the 97, which would cease to be pointless). The 42 is not "lightly travelled," by the way, unless 5.5 minute frequency buses filled with people is considered light.

LRT means you'd still need to grind traffic to a halt with a ridiculous number of buses per hour. BRT on Yonge north of Finch would be a disaster (and not just because of chaotic express/local mixing) but at least bus routes like Steeles could use the lanes. Neither BRT nor LRT is beneficial or desirable, but BRT was included if only because bus lanes were proposed along Yonge north of Finch to deal with bus traffic on Yonge and could theoretically materialize if the subway extension doesn't progress in a timely manner. York Region is placing its eggs in a Richmond Hill/Langstaff basket, and a subway extension is the only real option for its 4km stretch of Yonge, in addition to the 2km in Toronto that also, under any conceivable circumstances, needs a subway extension. If you're eager to see LRT lines get built, fight for a more streamlined subway project...enough money can and should be saved to build more transit elsewhere.
 
If they had wanted to build an LRT line, it would have been "predetermined," too, just like the Transit City lines are predetermined, just like BRT and GO projects are all predetermined. It's a subway extension...extending the subway is the *only* option. That's what a subway extension is...an extension of the subway.

Terminating bus routes at an LRT along Yonge only a few kilometres from the subway is a terrible idea that will worsen service and drive people to drive. The truth is that all of the routes would benefit from a subway extension (even the 97, which would cease to be pointless). The 42 is not "lightly travelled," by the way, unless 5.5 minute frequency buses filled with people is considered light.

LRT means you'd still need to grind traffic to a halt with a ridiculous number of buses per hour. BRT on Yonge north of Finch would be a disaster (and not just because of chaotic express/local mixing) but at least bus routes like Steeles could use the lanes. Neither BRT nor LRT is beneficial or desirable, but BRT was included if only because bus lanes were proposed along Yonge north of Finch to deal with bus traffic on Yonge and could theoretically materialize if the subway extension doesn't progress in a timely manner. York Region is placing its eggs in a Richmond Hill/Langstaff basket, and a subway extension is the only real option for its 4km stretch of Yonge, in addition to the 2km in Toronto that also, under any conceivable circumstances, needs a subway extension. If you're eager to see LRT lines get built, fight for a more streamlined subway project...enough money can and should be saved to build more transit elsewhere.

Why should anything be predetermined? Why can't we take a reasoned, informed, overal view of our transit system and make choices based on what's best for that particular area. Instead we are making political choices based on things that have very little to do with transit service.

I thought I made my point. The 2 Finch routes will not see any difference should the subway extension be built, they never ever tread onto Yonge St. The 2 Steeles routes would be most affected but I'd imagine that they'd run more or less express along Yonge anyway. 125, and 42 are on Yonge for what all of a block? So what benefit are they going to see. The 97, also, will still trundle along Yonge regardless of any subway expansion and will not be affected by it in any meaningful way. We've got subways being built where LRT would suffice, LRT being built where really subways should be and where busses (or BRT) would suffice, etc, etc, etc.

If an LRT is built long enough (As I said earlier to Richmond Hill Go or further), it will collect many more riders from surrounding feeder routes and bring them down to the subway quickly. It could replace many if not all of the YRT busses currently running down to Finch.

Anyway your post proved my point, subway was selected before selection began and the options (option really) considered were chosen because they would obviously fail in comparison to a subway.
 
I thought I made my point.

I didn't understand your point, either. Are you trying to say that the Yonge Extension will have little effect on Yonge Street bus traffic?

Anyway your post proved my point, subway was selected before selection began and the options (option really) considered were chosen because they would obviously fail in comparison to a subway.

How could his post prove anything about the nature of the selection process? Did it reveal secret historical truths about who was considering what? If so, I missed it.
 
Why should anything be predetermined? Why can't we take a reasoned, informed, overal view of our transit system and make choices based on what's best for that particular area. Instead we are making political choices based on things that have very little to do with transit service.

I thought I made my point. The 2 Finch routes will not see any difference should the subway extension be built, they never ever tread onto Yonge St. The 2 Steeles routes would be most affected but I'd imagine that they'd run more or less express along Yonge anyway. 125, and 42 are on Yonge for what all of a block? So what benefit are they going to see. The 97, also, will still trundle along Yonge regardless of any subway expansion and will not be affected by it in any meaningful way. We've got subways being built where LRT would suffice, LRT being built where really subways should be and where busses (or BRT) would suffice, etc, etc, etc.

If an LRT is built long enough (As I said earlier to Richmond Hill Go or further), it will collect many more riders from surrounding feeder routes and bring them down to the subway quickly. It could replace many if not all of the YRT busses currently running down to Finch.

Anyway your post proved my point, subway was selected before selection began and the options (option really) considered were chosen because they would obviously fail in comparison to a subway.

You don't really have a point, not one that makes much sense, anyway. Every project is predetermined and studies "examine" "alternate" "options" (including the ever popular 'do nothing') that are immediately discarded to "justify" predetermined choices. That's how these things work and that's how it would work if an LRT line was chosen. It'd be great if transit studies always selected the option you prefer, but tough luck. There is no objective way to plan transit...politics and all kinds of subjective city-building and common sense factors come into play as much - and sometimes more than - the nebulous 'informed reasoning' you're looking for. Of course, your opposition to extending the Yonge subway into the 905 is based, in part, on politics, so...

An LRT line is not a substitute for a subway extension. A subway extension is inarguably the only serious option north of Finch. It is absolutely necessary. Where it terminates, though, is debatable. York Region, its municipalities, and the province have made transit and planning decisions that make Hwy 7 the best place to terminate the line, and not some place north or south of Hwy 7.

You don't seem to be understanding what would happen to the bus routes in each scenario. With a subway extension, routes like Steeles and Cummer would not continue down to Finch, and neither would the YRT routes (though some will continue along Yonge for a bit north of Steeles to get to the ridiculously massive Steeles station). The mileage and frequency of buses plying Yonge would drop dramatically. If they built an LRT line starting at Finch and going north, buses like Steeles and Cummer would continue on to Finch and not terminate at an LRT line a few blocks away from the subway (and if they did, ridership would plummet). Some YRT and GO routes would do the same (though YRT routes are more malleable)...how would an LRT line on Yonge replace, for instance, the Bathurst, Milliken, or Bayview bus? It wouldn't.

The 97 could very well be eliminated, but what's more likely is that it would replace the local service previously provided by, mainly, the 53...it could then support service a bit better than every half hour and the buses wouldn't run nearly empty. Every metre of bus route replaced by a subway extension is fantastic and productive, especially when so many routes inefficiently overlap north of Finch and when bad traffic - worsened by the buses themselves - is a problem.
 
I don't understand what the problem is...

The question was simply why was BRT chosen as the only alternative in the comparison and not LRT? Arguably LRT can do anything BRT can and do it better no?

The implication was that Metrolinx intentionally chose an inferior option for their comparison so that the subway option would come out on top
 

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