It's basically, "Our transit funding model is outmoded and absurd, so how can you argue lines should go to where the ridres actually are when someone drew a line on a map 50 years ago in a different place!?"
Agreed entirely, but wow, that is one of the most infuriatingly “Toronto public meeting” statements I’ve heard. With a definite emphasis on the very IDEA of it somehow totally discrediting whoever suggested it with a dash of considering the idea actually offensive.
 
Agreed entirely, but wow, that is one of the most infuriatingly “Toronto public meeting” statements I’ve heard. With a definite emphasis on the very IDEA of it somehow totally discrediting whoever suggested it with a dash of considering the idea actually offensive.
Yeah, I get it, superficially. But since we know 416 people and 905 people cross borders all the time - in cars, buses, trains etc - the anger should be directed to a system that doesn't recognize that, instead of a "Well, it's MY transit system!" attitude. I once heard a prominent Toronto planner talking about Regional Riders as if they're a different species. Someone who walks to catch a bus to Finch from Willowdale or Thornhill is a TTC rider, regardless. Fare integration is another UT thread so I won't go on at length here but it's long, long overdue and hopefully it will put an end the obsolete fiefdoms, like the transit agency's farebox-centred imagination of how people get around.
 
I'm sorry? Do the regions around Toronto contribute to the TTC subways operations, capital projects such as Signal Upgrades, station upgrades, fleet etc., which directly enable these extensions to suburbia? Or are we supposed to bite the bullet like we already do maintaining highways mainly driven on by 905ers. 🤨 If any station is getting cut it shouldn't be Cummer.
Well, okay, sure… I’m not sure where you expect this non sequitur to go. I/we’ve already discussed why it seems Cummer has been cut by Metrolinx, but I’ll bite. You yourself recognize that these “subsidies” on the subway network have nothing to do with building these stations, most of which are covered by YR. So right away, you have to acknowledge Cummer Station is not in any way tied to those ‘subsidies’ either, because it is a singular capital expense like the rest of the stations.

Toronto now has to make its own decision on Cummer; the reason Metrolinx isn’t “giving” it to us because they don’t see the merit. A $500M+ station being based on “deservedness” and now equating it to the expense of operating and maintaining YR’s subways is ridiculous. It’s apples to oranges (and Cummer will add to these costs, too).

It’s one thing If you have a problem with Toronto subsidizing/ paying for things other cities use, thats fine I suppose- but it doesn’t explain why Cummer is a good use of money, and actually contradicts your talk of financial sense.
 
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Oh, it's like a 2012 UT post about YNSE. that got reposted here?

I mean, it did get cut (at least relative to the other stations) so whatever abstract concept of "justice" may underpin this logic doesn't mean much. Maybe that'll change later this year?
Royal Orchard, Cummer and Clark were all cut, with 1 promised to return, based on analysis. That was Clark, which makes sense, IMHO.
Royal Orchard vs Cummer is definitely dicier but at least, so the argument goes, Royal Orchard got funded by the TOCs approved to the north. Cummer is also on the bubble, but without a TOC to help fund it, apparently.
That's how it shakes out.

"Suburbia," I guess is the vast gulf separating the north side of Steeles from the south side? It's, like, a real thing? We're gonna start quibbling about highways (allegedly) driven by 905er who, I presume, spend money at restaurants or work at offices in Toronto? Torontonians would never drive on a highway?. Never work way out there in suburbia? Just obsolete thinking, IMHO.

(Also, TTC's fleet, among other things, receives federal and Provincial funding so if you're wondering whether 905ers contribute to it, the answer is definitely a yes; so do people in Sudbury, Kelowna and Halifax, whether they like it or not.)

I've been tired of this "But Toronto pays for TTC!" thing forever because it's kind of the only thing resembling an argument:. It's basically, "Our transit funding model is outmoded and absurd, so how can you argue lines should go to where the ridres actually are when someone drew a line on a map 50 years ago in a different place!?" I look forward to the fare integration coming this year putting an end to having it thrown out in forums like this again.

In the meantime, I don't have strong feelings about whehter they build Cummer or not and Toronto has already decided they'd rather keep taxes low and spend money the paltry money they do have on stuff like the Gardiner and imaginary parks over rail corridors where they don't even own the land/air rights, so I'm not going to lose sleep if it isn't built either.
I don't think "regional fare integration" is an excellent answer to this at all. I think the reality is despite your best efforts here TJ, this is still seen as a vote buying project, and not an urban one. The Royal Orchard example exemplifies it. The stop was taken out for various reasons we won't get into here. Then put back by Ford and his team. Then the subway is moved because of a small graveyard. The YNSE is just the crown jewel in people thinking that York Region has too much say on transit. I mean the real reason why this is going through is because the Richmond Hill GO Line doesn't hit anywhere along the line the subway does. (Remember this extension was in the works prior to the condo boom). The frustration of Toronto residents is fair. This would be the second one, especially when Vaughan already got a subway, for all intents and purposes.


That said, it is what it is.
 
I don't think "regional fare integration" is an excellent answer to this at all. I think the reality is despite your best efforts here TJ, this is still seen as a vote buying project, and not an urban one. The Royal Orchard example exemplifies it. The stop was taken out for various reasons we won't get into here. Then put back by Ford and his team. Then the subway is moved because of a small graveyard. The YNSE is just the crown jewel in people thinking that York Region has too much say on transit. I mean the real reason why this is going through is because the Richmond Hill GO Line doesn't hit anywhere along the line the subway does. (Remember this extension was in the works prior to the condo boom). The frustration of Toronto residents is fair. This would be the second one, especially when Vaughan already got a subway, for all intents and purposes.


That said, it is what it is.
I’d argue this project has more merit than the TYSSE… at least north of Steeles there. My view is that this is being treated as urgent because of politics, but it is needed in any case. I think that stations like Steeles and Langstaff will be immensely useful in setting up York Region for success in building a real transit network. Not sure if this should be taking priority over other plans, though.
 
(Also, TTC's fleet, among other things, receives federal and Provincial funding so if you're wondering whether 905ers contribute to it, the answer is definitely a yes; so do people in Sudbury, Kelowna and Halifax, whether they like it or not.)
Yeah - but the people in Toronto do pay more as well through the city portion of fleet renewal. Since you don’t seem concerned about regional boundaries when it comes to service, it seems right for the residents of York Region to pitch in extra as well for the capital costs of upgrading the TTC fleet - part of which will serve them, after all.

At the end of the day, the provincial government realized they’d more to lose politically by screwing over York Region than Toronto. They made the calculation to placate those residents by building them a deep underground station around Royal York and screwing over the far greater number of people around Cummer. No amount of post-hoc justification changes that analysis or the unfairness. It’s glossing over all this that really sticks in one’s craw.
 
Yeah - but the people in Toronto do pay more as well through the city portion of fleet renewal. Since you don’t seem concerned about regional boundaries when it comes to service, it seems right for the residents of York Region to pitch in extra as well for the capital costs of upgrading the TTC fleet - part of which will serve them, after all.

At the end of the day, the provincial government realized they’d more to lose politically by screwing over York Region than Toronto. They made the calculation to placate those residents by building them a deep underground station around Royal York and screwing over the far greater number of people around Cummer. No amount of post-hoc justification changes that analysis or the unfairness. It’s glossing over all this that really sticks in one’s craw.

This is all kind of old ground to go over and no one here - least of all me - is going to suggest this, or any other transit decision we've seen in the past 30 years, was made based on objective data, free of politics. I don't think people at Cummer (85% of whom will still be within walking distance of Steeles or Finch) are getting significantly screwed over but, as I've also said, I generally agree that both Cummer and RO are borderline stations but given my choice, I'd have opted for Cummer. But it doesn't change that YR is paying $ for its stations and Toronto is not. If Toronto wants to pay for Cummer, Toronto can pay for it. I don't think it's a priority for them and that is not anyone else's fault, regardless of the merits or lack thereof at Royal Orchard.

But to also reiterate:
-All of Canada and Ontario pay for TTC's fleet, as you can see by the stickers on the trains.
-I have no problem with the idea YR residents, in particular, should pay more to TTC. It's a failure of governance, not a reason to punish people who want to use transit. I hope the new fare system will be more equitable in this regard.

I don't think "regional fare integration" is an excellent answer to this at all.
It is, to a point, which is addressing the long-term complaint that YR residents don't contribute to TTC operations. They do when they pay fares, of course. And given the TTC's poor taxpayer subsidy that means, they pay a not-inconsequential percentage already. And I have no problem with someone saying that if the TTC is going to YR, they should pay their "fair share" and hopefully fare integration will help with this. In the meantime, there was already a co-mingling of capital/operating in the original complaint that needs to be separated.

I think the reality is despite your best efforts here TJ, this is still seen as a vote buying project, and not an urban one. The Royal Orchard example exemplifies it. The stop was taken out for various reasons we won't get into here. Then put back by Ford and his team. Then the subway is moved because of a small graveyard.

Well, yes and yes - but, in fairness, it's a very large cemetery (145 acres) owned by the Catholic church, which is not a "small graveyard." but I certainly otherwise take your general point.
Just because indvidual decisions are political doesn't mean the final product is not necesary or justifiable (see also: Ontario Line).

The YNSE is just the crown jewel in people thinking that York Region has too much say on transit. I mean the real reason why this is going through is because the Richmond Hill GO Line doesn't hit anywhere along the line the subway does. (Remember this extension was in the works prior to the condo boom). The frustration of Toronto residents is fair. This would be the second one, especially when Vaughan already got a subway, for all intents and purposes.

Here I disagree. That's not the "real reason." The real reason - which many still find difficult to accept - is to enable massive suburban intensification in a key node, the plans for which go back concretely more than 15 years now and, really, another 10 or 15 years prior to that. I don't really care whether Toronto residents are frustrated because they don't understand the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe. I'm not going to roll my eyes for the umpteenth time when I hear David Miller opining that RH residents really would be best served by the (not viable) GO improvements when he and I both know that he probaly hasn't been within 10km of Silver City Richmond in his life, much less reviewed the (pre-MZO) Langstaff Gateway Secondary Plan. Objectively, that position is simply wrong and (speaking to what I've heard him say, not you) is ignorant of intensification patterns and plans as well as how people in south York Region travel and use transit.

As for Vaughan "already getting a subway," it's 2.5 stops on the opposite side of the municpality and, again, Torontonians can be frustrated if they're ignorant of growth in the 905 but I'd suggest they should be far more concerned about their own declining inner suburban population, how they've messed up transit in Scarborough (which will become VERY clear before the end of the year), how they're wasting money on SmartTrack and the Gardiner, and a half dozen other transit/growth-related issues before dwelling unduly on how "their" infrastructure is allowing for less auto-centric development in their suburban neighbours. IMHO.

That said, it is what it is.
Agreed. This, no one can dispute. :)
 
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Well, okay, sure… I’m not sure where you expect this non sequitur to go. I/we’ve already discussed why it seems Cummer has been cut by Metrolinx, but I’ll bite. You yourself recognize that these “subsidies” on the subway network have nothing to do with building these stations, most of which are covered by YR. So right away, you have to acknowledge Cummer Station is not in any way tied to those ‘subsidies’ either, because it is a singular capital expense like the rest of the stations.

Toronto now has to make its own decision on Cummer; the reason Metrolinx isn’t “giving” it to us because they don’t see the merit. A $500M+ station being based on “deservedness” and now equating it to the expense of operating and maintaining YR’s subways is ridiculous. It’s apples to oranges (and Cummer will add to these costs, too).

It’s one thing If you have a problem with Toronto subsidizing/ paying for things other cities use, thats fine I suppose- but it doesn’t explain why Cummer is a good use of money, and actually contradicts your talk of financial sense.

Oh, my apologies. I thought the Subway's purpose was to provide high order LOCAL transit in the City of Toronto. How can a station such as Cummer not meet this criteria?

Losing stations like Cummer, I think the City should press the province to create firm boundaries on the area the subway is meant to serve and how it can be done without affecting it's intended purpose. Having another Eglinton to Lawrence gap in a dense neighbourhood shouldn't be the model. Period.
 
Oh, my apologies. I thought the Subway's purpose was to provide high order LOCAL transit in the City of Toronto. How can a station such as Cummer not meet this criteria?

Losing stations like Cummer, I think the City should press the province to create firm boundaries on the area the subway is meant to serve and how it can be done without affecting it's intended purpose. Having another Eglinton to Lawrence gap in a dense neighbourhood shouldn't be the model. Period.
I’ve talked about why I think the merits of Cummer aren’t fully present already, but I’ll give you the gist.

1. The proximity to Finch. It’s literally walking distance to it, as Finch station is north of Finch avenue and Cummer is only ~550m away from the pick up/drop off.

2. The existing density is high, but not enough to justify a station. Now, for all our suburban extensions it almost never is, so that brings me to the last point…

3. The Cummer/Drewry buses alone are not going to provide the kind of ridership to justify a whole new station. And, they can easily just go to the now-under capacity Finch.

These in isolation would be fine, and if it was half the cost maybe I’d agree Cummer is worth it. But for $500M? The case just isn’t remotely airtight. For some reason everyone wants to ignore just how much money this is, but $500M doesn’t get thrown around every day. It is the only factor that truly pushes this into unfeasibility.

As I said before, if it turns out we are wrong and we need Cummer, then the extra $50-100M to build it as infill will be worth it. But if we don’t, then we save $500M that can go to rapid transit elsewhere. You can build a lot of things that “provide higher order transit” to more Torontonians with this kind of money, certainly a lot more than a single dubiously-justifiable bored subway station.

Anywho, I would just like you to consider that if the merits need to even be debated, maybe it’s not worth $500M to take that gamble. Not in this environment.

Edit: to add, the ship has sailed on keeping the subway inside of Toronto, much less under city jurisdiction. Your idea also negates the real benefits of extending into the 905 suburbs, which are just like the 416 before the subways went there. Let’s not miss the forest for the trees.
 
I’ve talked about why I think the merits of Cummer aren’t fully present already, but I’ll give you the gist.

1. The proximity to Finch. It’s literally walking distance to it, as Finch station is north of Finch avenue and Cummer is only ~550m away from the pick up/drop off.
It's 1.8 km from the pick up/drop off to Steeles. I don't think 900 metres (without even considering the distance from Yonge) is walking distance.

Maybe it should be at Patricia instead of Cummer. Though the thing is so deep, that you could build the headhouses near Patricia and Cummer, and have a single, very long escalator on each side into a ground-level fare line.

Still further apart than some stations.
 
It's 1.8 km from the pick up/drop off to Steeles. I don't think 900 metres (without even considering the distance from Yonge) is walking distance.

Maybe it should be at Patricia instead of Cummer. Though the thing is so deep, that you could build the headhouses near Patricia and Cummer, and have a single, very long escalator on each side into a ground-level fare line.

Still further apart than some stations.
The benefit of having a mid-block station I think is the crux of the issue here. You could justify one at a high level, but as we are discussing, the specifics don’t fully pan out. Cummer is too far south to be “mid-block” but it’s the only place you could justify one if your trying to be on a perpendicular bus line. Patricia would be decent if Cummer buses could get there easily, but It likely would have cost issues too.

Also, my measurement from Google Earth was as follows. I think we might have measured different things, but if I was wrong then I’ll concede that point, lol.
68ED0783-DF57-4262-BE9A-D1223848DBFC.jpeg
 
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This is all kind of old ground to go over and no one here - least of all me - is going to suggest this, or any other transit decision we've seen in the past 30 years, was made based on objective data, free of politics. I don't think people at Cummer (85% of whom will still be within walking distance of Steeles or Finch) are getting significantly screwed over but, as I've also said, I generally agree that both Cummer and RO are borderline stations but given my choice, I'd have opted for Cummer. But it doesn't change that YR is paying $ for its stations and Toronto is not. If Toronto wants to pay for Cummer, Toronto can pay for it. I don't think it's a priority for them and that is not anyone else's fault, regardless of the merits or lack thereof at Royal Orchard.

But to also reiterate:
-All of Canada and Ontario pay for TTC's fleet, as you can see by the stickers on the trains.
-I have no problem with the idea YR residents, in particular, should pay more to TTC. It's a failure of governance, not a reason to punish people who want to use transit. I hope the new fare system will be more equitable in this regard.


It is, to a point, which is addressing the long-term complaint that YR residents don't contribute to TTC operations. They do when they pay fares, of course. And given the TTC's poor taxpayer subsidy that means, they pay a not-inconsequential percentage already. And I have no problem with someone saying that if the TTC is going to YR, they should pay their "fair share" and hopefully fare integration will help with this. In the meantime, there was already a co-mingling of capital/operating in the original complaint that needs to be separated.



Well, yes and yes - but, in fairness, it's a very large cemetery (145 acres) owned by the Catholic church, which is not a "small graveyard." but I certainly otherwise take your general point.
Just because indvidual decisions are political doesn't mean the final product is not necesary or justifiable (see also: Ontario Line).



Here I disagree. That's not the "real reason." The real reason - which many still find difficult to accept - is to enable massive suburban intensification in a key node, the plans for which go back concretely more than 15 years now and, really, another 10 or 15 years prior to that. I don't really care whether Toronto residents are frustrated because they don't understand the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe. I'm not going to roll my eyes for the umpteenth time when I hear David Miller opining that RH residents really would be best served by the (not viable) GO improvements when he and I both know that he probaly hasn't been within 10km of Silver City Richmond in his life, much less reviewed the (pre-MZO) Langstaff Gateway Secondary Plan. Objectively, that position is simply wrong and (speaking to what I've heard him say, not you) is ignorant of intensification patterns and plans as well as how people in south York Region travel and use transit.

As for Vaughan "already getting a subway," it's 2.5 stops on the opposite side of the municpality and, again, Torontonians can be frustrated if they're ignorant of growth in the 905 but I'd suggest they should be far more concerned about their own declining inner suburban population, how they've messed up transit in Scarborough (which will become VERY clear before the end of the year), how they're wasting money on SmartTrack and the Gardiner, and a half dozen other transit/growth-related issues before dwelling unduly on how "their" infrastructure is allowing for less auto-centric development in their suburban neighbours. IMHO.


Agreed. This, no one can dispute. :)
Very well said. I didn’t want to take a policy/planning angle because I figured people could just say “the policies are le bad” but it’s the most concrete explanation for a lot of this. Not sure if this counts as an addition, but the efforts of the growth plan have slowly been coming to fruition in the 905 for the last decade or so. This new reality is unfolding before us, and VMC is perhaps the best place to go to understand it’s vision for now.

I wouldn’t say Toronto is ignorant of these plans, rather they often don’t care, but to that I’d say our growth plan(s) has been built on the backs of what Toronto has done. 905 growth and the 416 are inseparable. If it weren’t for the animosity between the two, maybe the province wouldn’t be quite so heavy-handed about things. It’s ironic, because in some ways the built form of the 905 is more conducive to transit than the 416. Places like Richmond Hill are far from being Toronto’s Naperville.
 
Also, my measurement from Google Earth was as follows. I think we might have measured different things, but if I was wrong then I’ll concede that point, lol. View attachment 486974
That's about what I got as a measurement. 550 metres to Cummer. Another 1250 metres to Steeles for a 1.8 km gap. But Cummer to the half-way point (about Princess) is only another 350 metres.

If you have a 150-metre platform, a 30-metre deep station, and to escalators at each then 30·3√½ = 52.0 metres. So that's 254 metres taken up by the platform and escalators.

Okay, put the middle station at Connaught then. With the north end of the platform 50 metres south of Connaught, you could go up from the escalator right to a bus terminal at Cummer. Heck, put the terminal at 5959 Yonge, and you COULD do Patricia and still have the Cummer station closer to Cummer than the Greenwood station is to Greenwood Avenue.
 
That's about what I got as a measurement. 550 metres to Cummer. Another 1250 metres to Steeles for a 1.8 km gap. But Cummer to the half-way point (about Princess) is only another 350 metres.

If you have a 150-metre platform, a 30-metre deep station, and to escalators at each then 30·3√½ = 52.0 metres. So that's 254 metres taken up by the platform and escalators.

Okay, put the middle station at Connaught then. With the north end of the platform 50 metres south of Connaught, you could go up from the escalator right to a bus terminal at Cummer. Heck, put the terminal at 5959 Yonge, and you COULD do Patricia and still have the Cummer station closer to Cummer than the Greenwood station is to Greenwood Avenue.
That’s an interesting way to set it up. I sometimes forget how long subway platforms are, and that by adjusting the configuration you can give more coverage than just stating “station here”. I agree that if Cummer Station was north of Cummer, the case gets a bit stronger. I can’t really say if this makes it viable overall now, but I leave that to the City to decide. Glad you found a way to mitigate what I saw as a major issue; shows you can’t completely rule Cummer as viable without exploring options like this.
 
That’s an interesting way to set it up. I sometimes forget how long subway platforms are, and that by adjusting the configuration you can give more coverage than just stating “station here”.
It does get interesting. Looking at some recent deeper examples, the distance from the north entrance (north of Steeles) to the south entrance (Howard Moscoe Way) of Pioneer Village station is almost 350 metres! The south entrance of Vaughan Centre station (at the Viva station in the middle of 7) to the middle of the bus terminal is over 350 metres. Even a shallow station like Greenwood will have about 220 metres between the current Linsmore exit to the proposed Monarch Park exit. I've seen almost 500 metres in Seoul (you do want to stop and make sure you have the correct exit!)
 

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