[ARG1]

Ah, my favourite UrbanToronto line of argument. Someone questions some commonly accepted line of thinking, such as light metro being the unquestionably best tech for the OL, that we need to build expensive subways everywhere, or that automation everywhere is an unquestionable benefit for our civilization, and rather than meaningfully engaging with the discussion, the person is called irrational, behind the times, etc. I certainly don't think there is any shame in being hesitant to unquestionably accept a new technology (or at least there shouldn't be) just because our overlords, who as we all know from careful reading of history are a generous and kind demographic of people who always have our best interests and well being at heart, foisted it upon us and assured us it's safe.

I agree that this kind of response is silly, that being said you haven't given many reasonable arguments to work off of. Even in this paragraph, it is filled with so many strawmen points - its amazing to hear you still think that "We need to build expensive subways everywhere" is something people on here argue for. I agree we should be hesitant to accept new technology because of our overlords, but there is a massive difference between new Gadgetbahns like Hyperloops, O-Bahns, and trackless trams, versus Automated Metros that have existed in some form for over half a century, and have more than proven themselves.

If wanting someone trained in evacuation procedures, emergency evacuations, and who can contact the authorities clearly and accurately on my trains is irrational or paranoid, then wearing seatbelts, locking your house at night, keeping computer backups, looking both ways before crossing the street, wearing hi-vis clothing in the dark, having a first aid kit, wearing a helmet while biking, having Two Factor Authentication, or having emergency contacts must also be irrational and paranoid. I have found in my life that I have not really needed to do any of these things up until this point, but I still do them, because it only takes one misadventure for the decision to do these things to pay off.

Let me frame it another way. How much money does it cost to pay such a person to be on a train? 30-40 dollars per hour? If we have trains running every 90s, that's an insane amount of money that could be spent on hiring more bus operators to provide supplemental feeder services, and its money being wasted to prevent something that might happen once every 30-40 years. So to compare it to wearing a helmet, hi-vis clothing, or using 2 factor authentication is utterly insane.

I want someone to answer these questions clearly and concisely: if there is no employee on board the train, how does an automated metro conduct an evacuation in the event of a derailment or fire? How does the general public know where to go, or how to avoid debris on the track bed? What about if police or paramedic intervention is required? In a dark tunnel, everything looks the same and no one knows where they are (or even what happened). How does anyone know where they are or how to get help? And no, meaningless platitudes about how the metro systems are safe don't mean a thing. Everything is safe, until it's suddenly not. Of course, the wikipedia article on automatic train operation doesn't mention anything about safety.

1) If train systems are still active, an employee is able to take control of the train remotely and move it back directly towards an emergency exit/ladder.
2) If not, there is almost always going to be a station attendant at the next nearby station who might be able to run over, not to mention the fire department that I think always has to be at least 5m away, and get training on how to perform rescue operations from subways.

 

[Deadpool X]

if highways were held to the same safety standard as this user wishes to hold mass rail transit projects to, there would be thousands of lives saved every year in this country.

Problem is not the highway safety but driving behaviour.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Problem is not the highway safety but driving behaviour.

Many of the suburban streets are designed for the "safety" of speeders, not for the safety of pedestrians. So we get speeders whizzing over the posted speed limits, because they can.

 

[Deadpool X]

Many of the suburban streets are designed for the "safety" of speeders, not for the safety of pedestrians. So we get speeders whizzing over the posted speed limits, because they can.

We are talking about highways. Pedestrians should not be walking on the highways.

 

[ericmacm]

Many of the suburban streets are designed for the "safety" of speeders, not for the safety of pedestrians. So we get speeders whizzing over the posted speed limits, because they can.

I’ve never seen anyone whizzing over the posted speed limits…

…the signs are too tall for that.

 

[KevinT]

If wanting someone trained in evacuation procedures, emergency evacuations, and who can contact the authorities clearly and accurately on my trains is irrational or paranoid, then wearing seatbelts, locking your house at night, keeping computer backups, looking both ways before crossing the street, wearing hi-vis clothing in the dark, having a first aid kit, wearing a helmet while biking, having Two Factor Authentication, or having emergency contacts must also be irrational and paranoid. I have found in my life that I have not really needed to do any of these things up until this point, but I still do them, because it only takes one misadventure for the decision to do these things to pay off.

You can't buy insurance after you need it. I'm in favor of driverless trains, but I am not in favor of crewless trains.

 

[afransen]

You can't buy insurance after you need it. I'm in favor of driverless trains, but I am not in favor of crewless trains.

In a world where trade-offs have to be made, would you prefer a SkyTrain style service that is crewless and runs with 2 min frequency or crewed that runs with 6 min frequency?

I'm sure some people disapproved the removal of elevator operators.

 

[KevinT]

In a world where trade-offs have to be made, would you prefer a SkyTrain style service that is crewless and runs with 2 min frequency or crewed that runs with 6 min frequency?

I'm sure some people disapproved the removal of elevator operators.

It depends on the length of the trains and the distance between stations (or swap that for travel time between stations), and the availability of customer service personal at those stations. For short trains with frequent stops at staffed stations (even if just a lone, safety-trained security guard), sure, remove the crew, but otherwise...

That said, there's no one blanket rule that fits every situation. Hopefully a trained and knowledgeable staff designs the system, and in a manner that's well informed by sufficient public consultation.

 

[Undead]

Spoke with a prominent Vaughan councillor today. She says the Steeles BRT is moving along, but not in a rush.

Also said there's an idea floating around to add elevated pedestrian crossings over Yonge and Steeles which would integrate with the subway station and planned development around the intersection.

 

[Deadpool X]

Wouldn't an underground pedestrian crossing be better? There will be entrances to subway station already and those could be used for crossing the road too.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wouldn't an underground pedestrian crossing be better? There will be entrances to subway station already and those could be used for crossing the road too.

They are refusing to put underground pedestrian crossings on the Crosstown West LRT at Kipling, Islington, and Martin Grove. There is no underground pedestrian crossing at Humber College on the Finch West LRT to cross Highway 27 to get to Etobicoke General Hospital (saying a "third party" could do it, and we're still waiting, and waiting, and waiting).

Expected by automobile addicted politicians and bureaucrats.

 

[Undead]

I bet you dollars to donuts if they did elevated or underground pedestrian crossings, urbanists like you Walter would complain that those crossings detract from sidewalk vitality/pedestrian/retail vitality or whatever. Do you just complain for the sake of complaining?

Personally, I doubt there will be any elevated or underground crossings because they will add cost and require coordination with surrounding property owners.

Wouldn't an underground pedestrian crossing be better? There will be entrances to subway station already and those could be used for crossing the road too.

Agreed.

 

[chrisw]

Toronto can’t afford a subway stop for this booming neighbourhood. The local councillor wants Doug Ford to step in

Coun. Lily Cheng fears that a Cummer Avenue stop on the Yonge extension may not get built without provincial funding.

www.thestar.com

MM11.19 - Last Chance to Urge Province to Build Cummer Station for the Future of North York - by Councillor Lily Cheng, seconded by Councillor Mike Colle

Agenda Item History 2023.MM11.19

Agenda Item History 2023.MM11.19

secure.toronto.ca

 

[EnviroTO]

Everyone feel sorry for Toronto city council. How could they possibly budget. Out of 35 cities in Ontario they have the lowest tax rate of all of them and the 4th from lowest tax. Toronto needs a bailout. Come on Windsor, pay more provincial and and federal tax so that the upper levels of government can bail Toronto out. Everyone knows Windsor is where people are driving around in BMWs and Mercedes while Torontonians drive around in rust buckets.

City	Avg Home	Home Rank	Tax Rate	Tax Rate Rank	Tax	Tax Rank
Caledon	$1,709,975	1	0.80%	24	$13,680	1
Windsor	$714,650	22	1.81%	1	$12,935	2
Whitby	$991,105	12	1.12%	17	$11,100	3
Oakville	$1,487,485	2	0.72%	30	$10,710	4
Pickering	$981,563	14	1.08%	21	$10,601	5
Ajax	$968,767	15	1.09%	19	$10,560	6
Orangeville	$783,615	18	1.33%	10	$10,422	7
Aurora	$1,363,412	3	0.76%	29	$10,362	8
Oshawa	$782,227	20	1.30%	11	$10,169	9
Peterborough	$693,871	26	1.44%	6	$9,992	10
Brampton	$1,003,263	11	0.96%	23	$9,631	11
Hamilton	$782,611	19	1.20%	14	$9,391	12
Guelph	$810,200	17	1.14%	16	$9,236	13
Newmarket	$1,124,974	7	0.79%	26	$8,887	14
Barrie	$729,500	21	1.21%	13	$8,827	15
London	$630,282	29	1.38%	8	$8,698	16
Kingston	$636,150	28	1.36%	9	$8,652	17
Richmond Hill	$1,317,247	4	0.65%	33	$8,562	17
Cambridge	$714,650	22	1.18%	15	$8,433	19
St. Catharines	$582,100	31	1.44%	6	$8,382	20
Niagara Falls	$640,000	27	1.30%	11	$8,320	21
Vaughan	$1,251,465	6	0.66%	32	$8,260	22
Burlington	$1,060,052	9	0.77%	28	$8,162	23
Markham	$1,282,561	5	0.63%	34	$8,080	24
Mississauga	$987,356	13	0.80%	24	$7,899	25
Kitchener	$714,650	22	1.10%	18	$7,861	26
Waterloo	$714,650	22	1.09%	19	$7,790	27
Halton Hills	$966,031	16	0.79%	26	$7,632	28
Milton	$1,031,770	10	0.68%	31	$7,016	29
Sudbury	$436,000	32	1.54%	5	$6,714	30
Toronto	$1,093,097	8	0.61%	35	$6,668	31
North Bay	$400,593	33	1.56%	4	$6,249	32
Ottawa	$624,003	30	1.00%	22	$6,240	33
Thunder Bay	$309,310	34	1.59%	2	$4,918	34
Sault Ste. Marie	$296,629	35	1.58%	3	$4,687	35

 

[generalcanada]

Everyone feel sorry for Toronto city council. How could they possibly budget. Out of 35 cities in Ontario they have the lowest tax rate of all of them and the 4th from lowest tax. Toronto needs a bailout. Come on Windsor, pay more provincial and and federal tax so that the upper levels of government can bail Toronto out. Everyone knows Windsor is where people are driving around in BMWs and Mercedes while Torontonians drive around in rust buckets.

City	Avg Home	Home Rank	Tax Rate	Tax Rate Rank	Tax	Tax Rank
Caledon	$1,709,975	1	0.80%	24	$13,680	1
Windsor	$714,650	22	1.81%	1	$12,935	2
Whitby	$991,105	12	1.12%	17	$11,100	3
Oakville	$1,487,485	2	0.72%	30	$10,710	4
Pickering	$981,563	14	1.08%	21	$10,601	5
Ajax	$968,767	15	1.09%	19	$10,560	6
Orangeville	$783,615	18	1.33%	10	$10,422	7
Aurora	$1,363,412	3	0.76%	29	$10,362	8
Oshawa	$782,227	20	1.30%	11	$10,169	9
Peterborough	$693,871	26	1.44%	6	$9,992	10
Brampton	$1,003,263	11	0.96%	23	$9,631	11
Hamilton	$782,611	19	1.20%	14	$9,391	12
Guelph	$810,200	17	1.14%	16	$9,236	13
Newmarket	$1,124,974	7	0.79%	26	$8,887	14
Barrie	$729,500	21	1.21%	13	$8,827	15
London	$630,282	29	1.38%	8	$8,698	16
Kingston	$636,150	28	1.36%	9	$8,652	17
Richmond Hill	$1,317,247	4	0.65%	33	$8,562	17
Cambridge	$714,650	22	1.18%	15	$8,433	19
St. Catharines	$582,100	31	1.44%	6	$8,382	20
Niagara Falls	$640,000	27	1.30%	11	$8,320	21
Vaughan	$1,251,465	6	0.66%	32	$8,260	22
Burlington	$1,060,052	9	0.77%	28	$8,162	23
Markham	$1,282,561	5	0.63%	34	$8,080	24
Mississauga	$987,356	13	0.80%	24	$7,899	25
Kitchener	$714,650	22	1.10%	18	$7,861	26
Waterloo	$714,650	22	1.09%	19	$7,790	27
Halton Hills	$966,031	16	0.79%	26	$7,632	28
Milton	$1,031,770	10	0.68%	31	$7,016	29
Sudbury	$436,000	32	1.54%	5	$6,714	30
Toronto	$1,093,097	8	0.61%	35	$6,668	31
North Bay	$400,593	33	1.56%	4	$6,249	32
Ottawa	$624,003	30	1.00%	22	$6,240	33
Thunder Bay	$309,310	34	1.59%	2	$4,918	34
Sault Ste. Marie	$296,629	35	1.58%	3	$4,687	35

thats a completely separate topic but this is very intentionally misleading.
Ive seen this repeated and its kinda annoying actually
theres a massive difference when your population is 6 million vs 170,000 (Oshawa)
you cant just take the average house price. As we know on urbantoronto 1 single building has 400 units...with all of them paying the same amount of property tax.

thats the equivalent of like 200 detached homes in Oshawa.

Yes Toronto has a budget crisis but nothing that cant be solved by a very small tax increase. which will end up being like 10% of 0.61% or effectively 7300. still at 30th place

I will also mention as you might know Toronto has the Gardiner and DVP to maintain for the people of the GTA who dont pay taxes to Toronto to pay for it.