- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
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GTS
Active Member
I think the subway should be extended to Steeles (at least). The new Steeles terminus station could accomodate a lot of bus routes as well as maybe a York region LRT that continues north on Yonge to Hgwy 7 at least. Maybe an LRT like Edmonton's would be more suitable for the density of Yonge north of Steeles. With a subway, LRT and a number of bus routes-the Steeles station could become an important transit hub for the TTC and YRT.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
There is nothing special about Steeles. The densest part of Yonge ends just north of Finch station at Cummer. Steeles only has a minor mall. More people live in a walking distance from Clark than at Steeles. Anyone who suggests an extension to Steeles but not beyond is warranted is taking a Toronto-centric view of transit planning. An extension to Steeles doesn't eliminate many transfers and only the two Steeles busses eliminate travel on Yonge. An extension to Langstaff serves the GO train station, the 407 busway, multiple VIVA routes, and eliminates the need for a lot of YRT buses to travel down Yonge as well as eliminating the need for the Steeles busses to travel on Yonge. There is no point going through the process of getting project managers, boring machines, construction equipment, etc, etc to only build an extension to Steeles which does nothing but provide a minor improvement to the Steeles busses.
Disparishun
Active Member
Given local travel patterns, have you considered a subway extension to Cummer, with reserved bus lanes between Cummer and Clark, and an Edmonton-style LRT between Clark and 7? This could then connect with a more long-haul commuter-oriented big-bus system at 7 heading north to 16th, which would then have seamless interconnections with local Yonge buses near the Oak Ridges/Aurora town line.
With integrated fares pegged to postal code (you would pay to get off and get on according to how much money people living in your postal code had paid in fares and thus, contributed their share to transit, during the previous fiscal year) this could be a promising regional counterpart to the Transfer City plan taking place in Toronto. Anyone riding the Cummer-Clark reserved buses right across the important Steeles boundary -- I am told this would be very rare -- would, of course, disembark temporarily to confer with customs agents and avoid an authorized 416/905 breach.
xtremesniper
Active Member
I think most people don't realize that it's not just serving York Region residents trying to get to Toronto, it would also serve Toronto residents going to York Region.
The amount of Toronto citizens working above Steeles has skyrocketed as of late, but again, most people seem to conveniently overlook that trend.
Ansem
Banned
and off course York citizens are paying through their taxes to help maintain the TTC subways annually
Are they?
Are they?
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Transit funding is changing, Ansem. It's precisely the logic behind your post that is being disassembled because people (including politicians) who say, "OUR transit system is funded by OUR taxpayers," with zero appreciation how people take it between municipalities are effectively living in the stone age.
Or maybe we should do this - Anyone who lives outside 416 should get special tokens and passes to ensure that when they use TTC their fare goes to their HOME transit system?
No - people move across the region and as big as the TTC is, it's just one part of that. Things will be a lot clearer when Metrolinx starts running the subway and begins implementing road tolls and other REGIONAL tax levies.
In the meantime, you can ride the wave or beat the dead "416$ for 416 Transit!" horse until reality catches up.
Besides - I think Disparishun has put this thread to rest. Dude nailed it and there is nothing more to say, is there?
Ansem
Banned
Are you that surprised that some Torontonians would resist extensions outside their city when it's their taxes will be paying for the extra maintenance cost?
Why not implemented that system of sharing costs first?
taal
Senior Member
The subway is actually profitable for the TTC so the above is not true at all.
In fact they're paying for all the construction costs in York region.
In fact they're paying for all the construction costs in York region.
kEiThZ
Superstar
^^ Ansem, as a 416er I say we need this. You really have no idea how many northern Toronto residents work in Markham, Richmond Hill and Vaughan do you? Don't they deserve good transit to be able get to and from work given that they pay for the system through fares and taxes?
Yes, York region does not currently collect funding for the TTC through it's taxes. And that's because the subway does not go there today. But they'll be pitching in when the extension gets built. Moreover, this bun fight has several corollaries. Right now York region does not get a say in how the subway system is run. As presently planned, they'll be paying for their share of the extension and associated operating costs but still won't get a say in how the system is run. The TTC could cut service to York in half after the extension is built and York would have zero input on that decision. If you really want them to start pitching in for the operating costs of the entire subway system than they rightfully deserve seats on the Transit Commission. Are you willing to have transit policy decided by York Region politicians?
Metrolinx was created to avoid these kinds of fights and facilitate co-operation. We are in a transistion phase and things are going to change. These extensions are a good indicator of that. The TTC and York region and the province through Metrolinx are co-operating on construction costs, operating costs, other capital costs, etc. So why are you opposed to it? Why are you still harping about York region paying its share when there's plenty of evidence already in this thread that they will?
Yes, York region does not currently collect funding for the TTC through it's taxes. And that's because the subway does not go there today. But they'll be pitching in when the extension gets built. Moreover, this bun fight has several corollaries. Right now York region does not get a say in how the subway system is run. As presently planned, they'll be paying for their share of the extension and associated operating costs but still won't get a say in how the system is run. The TTC could cut service to York in half after the extension is built and York would have zero input on that decision. If you really want them to start pitching in for the operating costs of the entire subway system than they rightfully deserve seats on the Transit Commission. Are you willing to have transit policy decided by York Region politicians?
Metrolinx was created to avoid these kinds of fights and facilitate co-operation. We are in a transistion phase and things are going to change. These extensions are a good indicator of that. The TTC and York region and the province through Metrolinx are co-operating on construction costs, operating costs, other capital costs, etc. So why are you opposed to it? Why are you still harping about York region paying its share when there's plenty of evidence already in this thread that they will?
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Ansem
Banned
I didn't know that the TTC was in it for profit! LOL
The TTC profitable???? really???
There's a difference between construction costs and maintenance.
Construction= 1 time
Maintenance is annually...being paid by Toronto taxpayers... The extra cost that the TTC and city hall will have to pay could have went to upgrades subway stations and improve many bus routes.
You can't expect TTC and Toronto to be happy about extensions being forced on them without anything regarding maintenance costs increasing.
In Montreal, 82 suburbs pays their share of Montreal metro maintenance cost. In exchange, the metro was recognize as a Metropolitain equipment. The time where Montreal would resist a metropolitain view of public transit was over.
-They have an integrated fare system (one card for many transit agency in the regions)
-Extensions made easier to suburbs
We all want that here too. I do. But not talking about maintenance cost being share will automatically make the TTC and Torontonians view the subways as their property alone.
Rainforest
Senior Member
As a temporary solution, extending the subway just to Steeles is a good idea, since the funding is in short supply. Not for the reasons of the stupid 416 - 905 rivalry, but since that part of Yonge is the most clogged with buses.
Bus routes north of Steeles are VIVA Blue and Pink, GO, 99, 77, 5, and 2. South of Steeles, it is all of the above, plus TTC's 60, 53, 42, 125, and YRT's 91, 88, 23 - at least twice as many buses in total.
The small scale of such project should not be an issue, since the workers and equipment including TBMs can be shifted to Yonge from the TYSSE project once they are no longer needed there.
In the longer term, although LRT could handle the demand north of Steeles, subway extension to HWy 7 would be better for network connectivity.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I think Keith lays it all out pretty simply. With all due respect, Ansem, you're living in the past.
First, your fixation on maintenance costs is a bit weird...it's the same trains and the same system, it's just running about 4 km further. I mean, there's no customs checkpoint down underground there. Did a maintenance man harm a family member or something?
Anyway, it is precisely because there is a simplistic logic to what you are saying that there has so far been no subway to Steeles to date and it is precisely because of that argument that Metrolinx served notice to all the transit authorities they will be effectively funding, operating and owning ALL the new lines that get built.
If I were King of the TTC I probably wouldn't want to share with others but that's why Metrolinx exists; to make sure all the fiefdoms work TOGETHER to help people who take transit.
As Keith has shown, and as Metrolinx has said, the extension will NOT be paid for by Toronto taxpayers and yet Toronto taxpayers will reap both the parking and fare revenues as well as the economic benefits of having 905ers come work/play in Toronto.
Your Montreal example is perfect because that is the regional funding system we are moving towards, even if the TTC comes kicking and screaming. It's not an IF, it's not even a WHEN. It's happening. Presto - an integrated fare card - will be in use before the subway opens, further mitigating your argument. SO, both things you're asking for will be there, right?
Does that satisfy you at all or do you wish to persist?
First, your fixation on maintenance costs is a bit weird...it's the same trains and the same system, it's just running about 4 km further. I mean, there's no customs checkpoint down underground there. Did a maintenance man harm a family member or something?
Anyway, it is precisely because there is a simplistic logic to what you are saying that there has so far been no subway to Steeles to date and it is precisely because of that argument that Metrolinx served notice to all the transit authorities they will be effectively funding, operating and owning ALL the new lines that get built.
If I were King of the TTC I probably wouldn't want to share with others but that's why Metrolinx exists; to make sure all the fiefdoms work TOGETHER to help people who take transit.
As Keith has shown, and as Metrolinx has said, the extension will NOT be paid for by Toronto taxpayers and yet Toronto taxpayers will reap both the parking and fare revenues as well as the economic benefits of having 905ers come work/play in Toronto.
Your Montreal example is perfect because that is the regional funding system we are moving towards, even if the TTC comes kicking and screaming. It's not an IF, it's not even a WHEN. It's happening. Presto - an integrated fare card - will be in use before the subway opens, further mitigating your argument. SO, both things you're asking for will be there, right?
Does that satisfy you at all or do you wish to persist?
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Although the TTC does not break down costs, most of us suspect that based on usage that cost recovery for the subway network is over 100%. That means it's profitable. The big money drain for the TTC is the bus network....though that's needed to feed the subway.
This is why I support merging the subway network with GO and letting the TTC charge full prices for the bus and giving everybody fair prices for the subway.
Rainforest
Senior Member
^ I would not base the argument on the 416 vs 905 municipal taxes:
1) Provincially collected taxes are paying for the construction. It is a huge cost and the maintenance costs would have to accumulate for decades before they match the cost of construction. But that time, we will certainly have an integrated fare system.
2) 905-ers are not paying Toronto's municiplat taxes, but they are contributing to the profitability of their employers located in Toronto, as well as retail, restaurants and other establishments.
3) As some have mentioned already, a growing number of 416-ers are working in 905 - and we don't expect them to support 905's transit system through their municipal taxes, either.
1) Provincially collected taxes are paying for the construction. It is a huge cost and the maintenance costs would have to accumulate for decades before they match the cost of construction. But that time, we will certainly have an integrated fare system.
2) 905-ers are not paying Toronto's municiplat taxes, but they are contributing to the profitability of their employers located in Toronto, as well as retail, restaurants and other establishments.
3) As some have mentioned already, a growing number of 416-ers are working in 905 - and we don't expect them to support 905's transit system through their municipal taxes, either.