[Prometheus The Supremo]

comparing christian groups to neonazis brings this argument to a whole new level of ridiculousness. stereotyping to an insane degree. becoming a christian is not the same as joining an antisemitic group. i'm sorry, but i just cannot buy your argument.

and just to be clear, i don't consider myself religious at all, but i am (nominally) catholic, so of course i take offense to others labelling all of christianity or catholicism as antisemitic. it's patently false and discriminatory and i do not accept it.

i was not comparing christian groups to to neo-nazis. not all white pride groups are neo-nazis. besides, it was just an analogy to try to make you understand the logic in my argument.

since you brought up your religion and my former one, you can not deny the fact that the catholic church has been hostile to jews all the way until WWII. and i know you will bring up examples of catholics who did good things to help jews, etc. but those are people who act on their own will just like child abusing priests act of their own will. to attribute the acts of individuals to an organization unless the organization actively supports such acts is wrong and incorrect.

also, being a follower of jesus is not antisemitic. but you can't deny there are existing religious institutions such as the catholic church who have been antisemitic for a very good chunk of their history and religious institutions that have branched off of the reformation can trace their origins back to a rabbid antisemite. their treatment of jews and indifference has been well documented.

of course, and i stress, being a member of these groups does not mean that you are antisemitic yourself. but like i said, if one is a member of a ideological group who has been antisemetic, it's kinda weird to accuse the liberal party for being antisemetic. if one is to play the guilt by association card and say the liberal party is antisemetic, don't be associated to an ideological group yourself who has been guilty for the same thing.

i don't know if i can make this any clearer... but i will try:

conservative MPs have distributed taxpayer-funded pamphlets that suggest the liberals have done some antisemetic things in the past. i'm willing to bet that there's a good chance that these MPs who are making these accusations along with the majority of MPs in the conservative party are part of religious groups who have done antisemetic things in the past. i just find that strange is all i'm saying.

 

[Dan416]

well i guess we've each reiterated our points enough times. i don't believe in this kind of guilt-by-association you seem to subscribe to, so we'll leave it at that.

i don't see a problem with any political party trying to gain any group's vote. i don't find it unusual. there's definitely a problem with the ten-percenter thing, but that's a separate issue.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

well i guess we've each reiterated our points enough times. i don't believe in this kind of guilt-by-association you seem to subscribe to, so we'll leave it at that.

i don't see a problem with any political party trying to gain any group's vote. i don't find it unusual. there's definitely a problem with the ten-percenter thing, but that's a separate issue.

have i once said that you were antisemetic for being a catholic? let me try a different analogy to try to get my point across.

say i am member of political group (A) but i also belong to ideological group (1) who has done antisemetic things in past. most of my fellow members in my political group (A) also belong to ideological group (1) and view this group (1) with the utmost respect. i then accuse and criticize political group (B) of doing antisemetic things in the past. doesn't it seem a bit hypocritical that i would grill political group (B) for things they may have done in the past when i my self belong to a group who has done far worse of the same things in the past? i would never send out papers stating that i belong to group (1) that did amtisemetic thing in past and that you shouldn't vote for me but have no problem with sending out papers saying group (B) members belong to a group that have been antisemetic in the past.

another analogy:


imagine the liberal party was mostly composed of members of the roman religion (hail jupiter! ). they then proceed to send out papers in a christian community stating that the conservative party has done anti-christian things in the past and you shouldn't vote for them because of it.

of course for this analogy to work, anti-christian would be anti-persons, not ideology and the roman religion be a group who have had hatred of these people (anti-persons) historically. BTW, it's just an analogy to get my point across, i don't want to get into a debate about the roman empire or anything as it is not necessary.

 

[Tewder]

At the end of the day the issue is that of smear politics. It is not up to the Conservative party to make these sorts of accusations. If there were any credibility to them there would be other more appropriate groups leading the charge. Bad form for the Conservatives if you ask me.

That said, the Liberals have mastered the art of smear politics at the expense of the Conservatives for years now. Harper as Nazi leader who will destroy fundamental rights? Is anybody really buying that??

We all know that these tactics are pretty transparent, not to mention insulting to the Canadian public, and they detract from the important issues that should be on the table. I always associated this sort of mud-slinging with American politics frankly and find it rather disappointing that politicians in Canada have found it so potent a tactic that they've gone down that path here. Shame.

 

[King of Kensington]

Peter Kent heckling Irwin Cotler...I wonder how that's going to play among Jewish voters.

 

[Long Island Mike]

The (Conservative) Jewish Vote in Canada...

KofK: Living in the NYC area as I do I wonder now how large is the Orthodox or Hasidic Jewish community in Canada? The most Conservative or if you prefer Right-leaning members of the Jewish faith. Montreal,Toronto and surprisingly Winnipeg has a substantial Jewish community of all types of Judaism I recall.

I recall that the majority of US Jews have leaned to the Left traditionally on many issues-especially those that are secular in the terms of religious observance. How does the Canadian Jewish community compare with those in the US?

LI MIKE

 

[King of Kensington]

I think they're pretty similar. Like their US counterparts, Canadian Jews are overwhelmingly liberal on social issues. I think the same pattern applies - with the minority of Orthodox Jews voting overwhelmingly Tory, and more secular Jews casting the vast majority of votes for other parties.

In the last election, the Conservatives won Thornhill and came close in Eglinton-Lawrence - both of these ridings have large Orthodox communities that seemed to vote as a bloc. In other ridings with large Jewish populations, however, the Conservatives did rather poorly.

 

[newuser2k9]

I wonder if the Conservative party feels that Jews Against Zionism are anti-Semitic?

At the very least, they must not belong to the monolithic "Jewish community" referenced in the pamphlet.

One of the anti-Zionist 'Jewish' groups, Neturei Karta, has had members attend Holocaust-denial conferences in Iran...


It is true, though, that Tories have picked up a large amount of the Jewish vote in recent years. This is partly due to the Conservative's push on certain issues, such as the recent voting against the Goldstone Report, which is almost unanamously rejected by the Canadian Jewish community. I think the problem is that Liberals are very poor at convincing the Jewish community that a peaceful, moderated solution is the best - and only - solution for Israel as a whole. With continuing settlement in the West Bank, the world community will have to end up putting Israel and Palestine into a new single state, one that would lose its Jewish identity. If steps aren't taken towards peace in the next decade, I fear Israel (and Palestine) as we know it may soon cease to exist.

 

[King of Kensington]

One of the anti-Zionist 'Jewish' groups, Neturei Karta, has had members attend Holocaust-denial conferences in Iran...

Yeah, NK really represents the lunatic fringe. Citing them gives anti-Zionists no credibility.

It is true, though, that Tories have picked up a large amount of the Jewish vote in recent years. This is partly due to the Conservative's push on certain issues, such as the recent voting against the Goldstone Report, which is almost unanamously rejected by the Canadian Jewish community. I think the problem is that Liberals are very poor at convincing the Jewish community that a peaceful, moderated solution is the best - and only - solution for Israel as a whole.

While the Tories may have made some inroads in the Jewish community, the vast majority of Canadian Jews vote for other parties despite Harper's claim to be more pro-Israel than the Israelis.

I also don't see your point that the Liberals not being successful at convincing the Jewish community that a "balanced" approach is the way to go. Unless you're referring to the minority of Jews who actually cast their vote primarily on the Israel issue.

ETA: To the extent Jews do vote based on Israel, I don't really see how the Tories can milk the issue further, as Ignatieff has moved the party toward a much more pro-Israel position.

 

[newuser2k9]

Yeah, NK really represents the lunatic fringe. Citing them gives anti-Zionists no credibility.



While the Tories may have made some inroads in the Jewish community, the vast majority of Canadian Jews vote for other parties despite Harper's claim to be more pro-Israel than the Israelis.

I also don't see your point that the Liberals not being successful at convincing the Jewish community that a "balanced" approach is the way to go. Unless you're referring to the minority of Jews who actually cast their vote primarily on the Israel issue.

ETA: To the extent Jews do vote based on Israel, I don't really see how the Tories can milk the issue further, as Ignatieff has moved the party toward a much more pro-Israel position.

You're underplaying the issue. Ignatieff has to work off the negative perceptions he gave off from the last Liberal leadership race, so any positive gains he's made are still shaky. The Liberal vote in heavily Jewish ridings did drop significantly in 2006, and the days of their 80% majority over the Jewish vote are long over. The fact of the matter is, between very similar parties, the Israel issue does become significant.

 

[King of Kensington]

Of course the days of Liberals getting 80% of the Jewish vote (or whatever) are over. If you haven't noticed the Liberals went from big majorities under Chretien (who faced Reform/Alliance on the right which had no appeal to Jews whatsoever) to the dithering of Martin and then the Dion debacle. Obviously the Liberal vote has dropped of significantly among virtually all groups including Jewish Canadians.

I could be wrong, but I think most of the damage has been done around the Israel issue. Ignatieff's comments played a big role in mobilizing the rightwing of the community, but I don't people are all of a sudden going to decide that they were OK with the Liberals last year but will change their mind because the Tories sent out a flyer reminding them of Iggy's comments and how Irwin Cotler "willingly attend the anti-Semitic Durban conference" (so did the CJC, Bnai Brith and Simon Weisenthal Center!)

 

[newuser2k9]

Of course the days of Liberals getting 80% of the Jewish vote (or whatever) are over. If you haven't noticed the Liberals went from big majorities under Chretien (who faced Reform/Alliance on the right which had no appeal to Jews whatsoever) to the dithering of Martin and then the Dion debacle. Obviously the Liberal vote has dropped of significantly among virtually all groups including Jewish Canadians.

I could be wrong, but I think most of the damage has been done around the Israel issue. Ignatieff's comments played a big role in mobilizing the rightwing of the community, but I don't people are all of a sudden going to decide that they were OK with the Liberals last year but will change their mind because the Tories sent out a flyer reminding them of Iggy's comments and how Irwin Cotler "willingly attend the anti-Semitic Durban conference" (so did the CJC, Bnai Brith and Simon Weisenthal Center!)

There was a difference between attending and attending to limit damage/monitor the racism occurring in the conference. These fllyers don't do anything for Jewish support of Conservatives, they only hamper a Liberal comeback. Jews compromise about percent of Canadians and are probably more politically involved than the average Canadian. Chipping off at the new Jewish Conservative majority is a question of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of votes.

 

[King of Kensington]

the new Jewish Conservative majority

You have no evidence that the majority of Jews vote Tory. There is little data on how Canadian Jews vote. But a reading of the 2008 election results in heavily Jewish ridings suggests to me that this is almost certainly not the case.

 

[newuser2k9]

You have no evidence that the majority of Jews vote Tory. There is little data on how Canadian Jews vote. But a reading of the 2008 election results in heavily Jewish ridings suggests to me that this is almost certainly not the case.

Really? Just citing the GTA as an example, the Jewish centre of Thornhill (36% Jewish) was one of the few blue ridings close to the city last election. In fact, the Jewish vote was even noted as a reason for the victory. And although the Star article has some murky statistics at the end, it says Liberals only make up about +/-34% of Jewish votes since 2006 (a number which for sure has decreased even further).

 

[King of Kensington]

First of all, even in Thornhill Peter Kent won with less than 50% of the vote - i.e. less than a majority. Meanwhile ridings like Mount Royal, Westmount-Ville Marie, St. Pauls and Willowdale the Liberals won by very, very wide margins and Outremont and Trinity-Spadina were won by the NDP. It seems to me that the Jewish community is far less monolithic than Harper seems to think.

Furthermore you can't use the result in Thornhill as a proxy for the national Jewish vote. It is an affluent 905 riding with a large religious Jewish vote which is much more small-"c" conservative. It has a very specific Jewish demographic very different from say, St. Paul's.

And I don't know where you get this 34% Liberal figure from. I looked on the Starwebsite and couldn't find it. But I do remember reading it was over 50% in 2006.

So while there was a swing to the Conservatives - I highly doubt it was such a massive shift that resulted in the number of Jews who vote Tory now outnumber supporters of all the other parties combined.