[yrt+viva=1system]

As the title says, would European style Tram-Train system work here? Would it be a more cost effective way of bridging suburban and rural towns than traditional heavy rail (railway)? Amidst all the furry of GO's RER/Expansion, the Crosstown and future Ontario Line, it almost seems like Tram-Train operations would be a good hybrid fit for certain areas in regards to nimble flexibility around development and perhaps a smaller infrastructure footprint. Doesn't seem like a mode that is discussed much or usually glossed over as just being a stereotypical urban road surface ROW rail transit.

Addendum:
-Tram-Train operations on a network that is isolated and independent of heavy railway operations (eg. CN/CP).
-Potential of hybridization of Tram-Train operations with a centralized transit mall/underground similar to Boston's Green Line with branches.

Hope others have some inputs on this mode of transportation.

 

[afransen]

Not sure what you mean by tram train. The only thing I can see happening is maybe some sort of DMU or EMU powered by battery/hydrogen.

 

[DKsan]

From Wiki: A tram-train is a light-rail public transport tram vehicles running through from an urban tramway network to main-line railway lines which are shared with conventional trains. This combines the tram's flexibility and accessibility with a train's greater speed, and bridges the distance between main railway stations and a city centre.

Essentially, it's a revival of the interurban tram.

I've often though the Hurontario extension north of downtown Brampton would benefit from tram-train operation, using the ROW to Orangeville. There's limited growth opportunity north of DT, so just use it as a commuter vehicle for north Brampton, and then link to Caledon/Orangeville using a vehicles that are probably more flexible than heavy trains. Other than that, I think there's limited opportunity for this in the GGHA; could we squeeze an extra two tracks along Lakeshore West GO for the Waterfront West LRT, Bolton Line, the Guelph-Preston link that Waterloo Region is exploring. There's other abandoned branch lines out there, but the key part is the transition to street-running, and modern LRT lines are few in the GTA.

 

[JSF-1]

Ottawa would be a good contender since the Citadis Spirit line of LRV's is already set up for Tram-Train style operation. As well Ottawa itself is a very large region with many disconnected communities like Arnprior so you can run a Tram-Train style interurban service there. I actually made a map a while back of what this might look like (ignore some of the missing stations though; i don't really know what I was going for here).

 

[drum118]

I have said for years that a Tram-Train is the best option to service Mississauga core if CP allows overhead lines until battery power can be use. Only need a short ramp from CP tracks to connect to Hurontario LRT line.

A number of places in Europe are using the Tram-train today with more in planning stage.

You can do this for a number of place in the GO system at very low cost.

 

[ssiguy2]

Such a system would also be ideal for commuter lines in smaller centres like London/St.Thomas and Hamilton/Brantford.

These are hardly novel approaches as they are currently used all over Europe and Asia and are basically nothing more than the old style interurban.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Such a system would also be ideal for commuter lines in smaller centres like London/St.Thomas and Hamilton/Brantford.

These are hardly novel approaches as they are currently used all over Europe and Asia and are basically nothing more than the old style interurban.

This is what I had in mind, some of these smaller urban centres can’t justify full GO-Train operations but could find Tram-Tram/Interurban a benefit.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

From Wiki: A tram-train is a light-rail public transport tram vehicles running through from an urban tramway network to main-line railway lines which are shared with conventional trains. This combines the tram's flexibility and accessibility with a train's greater speed, and bridges the distance between main railway stations and a city centre.

Essentially, it's a revival of the interurban tram.

I've often though the Hurontario extension north of downtown Brampton would benefit from tram-train operation, using the ROW to Orangeville. There's limited growth opportunity north of DT, so just use it as a commuter vehicle for north Brampton, and then link to Caledon/Orangeville using a vehicles that are probably more flexible than heavy trains. Other than that, I think there's limited opportunity for this in the GGHA; could we squeeze an extra two tracks along Lakeshore West GO for the Waterfront West LRT, Bolton Line, the Guelph-Preston link that Waterloo Region is exploring. There's other abandoned branch lines out there, but the key part is the transition to street-running, and modern LRT lines are few in the GTA.

It’s interesting how the definition of Interurban specifies a separation and isolated developing apart from heavy railroad operations. Which is different than “Tram-Train.” Did not know that until now. Perhaps I should edit the thread to include Interurban.

 

[Johnny280]

I think exploring a European-style Tram-Train system could be a game-changer for our suburban and rural connections. It sounds like a smart way to balance cost-effectiveness with the need for flexible transit options, especially in less dense areas.

I remember visiting Germany and being amazed by how seamlessly the Tram-Train system integrated urban and suburban travel. It felt like the perfect blend of convenience and efficiency. If we could adapt something similar here, it might complement our existing transit plans like GO's RER and the Ontario Line.

Have you checked out dbfahrplan.com? It’s a great resource for seeing how these systems work abroad. Maybe we could also consider other solutions, like enhancing bus routes or even exploring eco-friendly options like electric buses.

 

[Islington Express Bus]

I could see the case for the KW LRT being extended to Hamilton as a tram-train.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

I could see the case for the KW LRT being extended to Hamilton as a tram-train.

Yes, but no, but yes in my mind

The Fergus sub Guelph shuttle operation is an obviously good choice is ION is in place. Anything more than that has some things going for it, some significant issues with alignment and routing and will require a lot of new track. I am absolutely in favor of the concept of rebuilding the GVR from Galt to Brantford and running it as a Tram Train entering Hamilton via Dundas and the LRT... but that's not going to be an attractive Waterloo Region to Hamilton route in any way shape or fashion. To have any viability it will need significant speed, and very possibly it's own right of way from Brantford to Hamilton.

I really have to see the practical thing at this stage being to get Guelph - Cambridge rail in placebefore anythin happens to the corridor, but first and foremost emphasize good buses centered on Hamilton.

 

[crs1026]

Yes, but no, but yes in my mind

The Fergus sub Guelph shuttle operation is an obviously good choice is ION is in place. Anything more than that has some things going for it, some significant issues with alignment and routing and will require a lot of new track. I am absolutely in favor of the concept of rebuilding the GVR from Galt to Brantford and running it as a Tram Train entering Hamilton via Dundas and the LRT... but that's not going to be an attractive Waterloo Region to Hamilton route in any way shape or fashion. To have any viability it will need significant speed, and very possibly it's own right of way from Brantford to Hamilton.

I really have to see the practical thing at this stage being to get Guelph - Cambridge rail in placebefore anythin happens to the corridor, but first and foremost emphasize good buses centered on Hamilton.

I agree that a less-than-heavy rail link between KW and Hamilton will happen one day, and would be a great addition to the transportation network.

But I would caution against letting the map of old lines contaminate our thinking. We need new lines that are chosen based on current realities and future plans - that implies new route selections. Sure that might be more expensive, butthe land requirements are pretty modest especially in comparison to widening highways.

We also need to purge our thinking of ancient but charming interurban lines with their modest crossbucks at road crossings and bucolic crossroads stops with charming but minimalist shelters. Any new lines will require rail and road traffic signalling, grade separations or full crossing protection, and more elaborate stations (I'm not suggesting Taj Mahals, but there will be accessibility infrastructure, bus loops, ticket machines, and possibly other amenities.). And maybe sound walls and retaining walls, bigger culverts, etc. In short, they will be larger scale projects built to modern codes and standards. And much more elaborate planning studies, EA's, etc.

All of this will happen, I'm sure.....but at a measured pace, and requiring bigger budgets and project infrastructure than the interurbans were built with (even accounting for inflation). We didn't tear down the old networks overnight, and we won't build new ones any faster.

Which is why I like your emphasis on better bus service as a first step, and judicious application of lighter-rail technology in one or two applications. We will have to walk before we run.

- Paul

 

[Bureaucromancer]

I agree that a less-than-heavy rail link between KW and Hamilton will happen one day, and would be a great addition to the transportation network.

But I would caution against letting the map of old lines contaminate our thinking. We need new lines that are chosen based on current realities and future plans - that implies new route selections. Sure that might be more expensive, butthe land requirements are pretty modest especially in comparison to widening highways.

We also need to purge our thinking of ancient but charming interurban lines with their modest crossbucks at road crossings and bucolic crossroads stops with charming but minimalist shelters. Any new lines will require rail and road traffic signalling, grade separations or full crossing protection, and more elaborate stations (I'm not suggesting Taj Mahals, but there will be accessibility infrastructure, bus loops, ticket machines, and possibly other amenities.). And maybe sound walls and retaining walls, bigger culverts, etc. In short, they will be larger scale projects built to modern codes and standards. And much more elaborate planning studies, EA's, etc.

All of this will happen, I'm sure.....but at a measured pace, and requiring bigger budgets and project infrastructure than the interurbans were built with (even accounting for inflation). We didn't tear down the old networks overnight, and we won't build new ones any faster.

Which is why I like your emphasis on better bus service as a first step, and judicious application of lighter-rail technology in one or two applications. We will have to walk before we run.

- Paul

The thing about GVR, be it on the old ROW or not, is hitting Brantford and Paris rather than the straight shot into Hamilton that goes through 30 km of nothing. Frankly I suspect that the amount of demand for a Hamilton - Waterloo and Brantford - Waterloo service would be fairly comparable today if both existed.

Given the disbursed origin destination patterns and long distances if we're completely honest bus priority measures on 6, 8 and 24 could be sufficient for Hamilton traffic for a long time... If we DO try for rail I am inclined to think that building the Brantford route to genuinely fast standards outside the cities does more for more people than anything short of building multiple routes. As dumb as it sounds, a 200 km/h Tram Train that gets genuinely fast between Galt and Paris and Brantford and Hamilton (or Galt and Hamilton paralleling 8) might be very appropriate here.

 

[micheal_can]

This idea would likely be better for most of our cities throughout Canada.. It would bring low cost rapid transit to more places.

Having said that, there are a few challenges to overcome to make it a realty:
1) Transport Canada (TC) regulations make light rail vehicles on regular train lines not possible. Of course, those regulations could change.
2) There is such a demand for so much transit, part of the challenge would be whether this will serve the areas that are needing it now. So, if we look at places that are shortlisted for LRT/Subway expansions, would this work there?
3) Some sort of safeguard would be needed preventing heavy rail trains from continuing on the lines.
4) Having enough slots for them to run on the heavy rail lines.

Fix these challenges and we could solve much of our transportation issues.

 

[reaperexpress]

As others have mentioned, I think the best candidate for tram trains in Ontario is Waterloo-Wellington: