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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Re: the SRT. Your 3 points are totally irrelevant in this case. A subway extension to STC would be cheaper than the proposed LRTs, could be built faster, and would help more people.
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crackpott
Guest
I'm just wondering why under the current plan, they didn't extend the Jane line a little bit further south via the South Kingsway to connect with the lakeshore LRT. It's the shortest way to link the lakeshore with bloor in the west...
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Junglab2002
Guest
So what's your point? 6 km of subway, at a cost of ~$1 billion NOT including cars and any required subway yards (est at $1.2 billion including vehicles) vs. 120 km for $6.1 billion (5 times the cost for 20 times the track distance) INCLUDING 240 streetcars AND the yards to house them...
Based on the Transit City report, the proposed LRT network serves some 80 million riders per year in existing services, and is expected to serve some 174 million riders per year by 2021, while the SRT currently serves about 42,000 boardings per work day (x365 = 15 million riders per year as an absolute max, since week-ends are likely to see far less ridership)... with far less projected capacity for growth, and a FAR smaller catchment area.
Just to follow this train of thought until it crashes, that means that the LRT network would cost some $635 thousand per (currently served) person per km, while the RT conversion would cost some $13.3 million for the same metric. That's a 20 times premium.
Notwithstanding the above, I really don't see why or how you can compare a network, like the LRT plan, with a single extension, such as the SRT conversion on these terms. You can, however, talk all you want about how the RT refubishment (not considered to be a part of Transit City) should be ditched in favour of a subway, but this has no bearing on the LRT plan apart from the fact that we'd be back to planning an isolated line in an isolated geographic area which won't be ready for the better part of a decade.
Frankly, I cannot see how you beleive my 3 points are not valid in this light - 1 line (an extesion at that) does NOT a network make, no matter how hard you try... and the history of subway expansion in this city abundantly suggests that other, more pressing plans would indeed be held up by focusing on a single expensive line... which will take a long time to complete. In the meatime, people in every other part of the city will be starved of real improved transit service.
I reiterate, transit in this city needs more than a localized fix - it needs a massive, city-wide rethinking of how we get around.
Based on the Transit City report, the proposed LRT network serves some 80 million riders per year in existing services, and is expected to serve some 174 million riders per year by 2021, while the SRT currently serves about 42,000 boardings per work day (x365 = 15 million riders per year as an absolute max, since week-ends are likely to see far less ridership)... with far less projected capacity for growth, and a FAR smaller catchment area.
Just to follow this train of thought until it crashes, that means that the LRT network would cost some $635 thousand per (currently served) person per km, while the RT conversion would cost some $13.3 million for the same metric. That's a 20 times premium.
Notwithstanding the above, I really don't see why or how you can compare a network, like the LRT plan, with a single extension, such as the SRT conversion on these terms. You can, however, talk all you want about how the RT refubishment (not considered to be a part of Transit City) should be ditched in favour of a subway, but this has no bearing on the LRT plan apart from the fact that we'd be back to planning an isolated line in an isolated geographic area which won't be ready for the better part of a decade.
Frankly, I cannot see how you beleive my 3 points are not valid in this light - 1 line (an extesion at that) does NOT a network make, no matter how hard you try... and the history of subway expansion in this city abundantly suggests that other, more pressing plans would indeed be held up by focusing on a single expensive line... which will take a long time to complete. In the meatime, people in every other part of the city will be starved of real improved transit service.
I reiterate, transit in this city needs more than a localized fix - it needs a massive, city-wide rethinking of how we get around.
T
Towered
Guest
I reiterate, transit in this city needs more than a localized fix - it needs a massive, city-wide rethinking of how we get around.
Exactly, we all need to think of the big picture instead of greedily scrounging for proverbial scraps from the dinner table manifested in localized extensions. This mentality has developed as a result of the subway obessesion in this city - they're so astronomically expensive and glacially slow to build that on the rare, once-a-decade occasions where some half-assed extension gets funded, everybody in the different areas of Toronto fight tooth and nail to get it without giving a damn about the need for a network.
I went to the TTC meeting today where the Transit City plan was discussed at length, and they repeatedly hammered the point home that the emphasis on future expansion would be to build a network within a very reasonable amount of time, something that's impossible by emphasizing subways. I distinctly got the impression that there won't be any major subway extensions on the drawing board from now on, which represents a very wise sea change at the TTC.
A few other points from the meeting:
- The councillors who spoke were all very enthusiastic about the plan, including a couple of Scarborough guys (De Baermaker and Thompson) who both mentioned how they felt they made the right choice by dropping the push for a subway replacement for the RT and instead opting to support an LRT network with far more coverage. So Siberiankhatru, you might as well stop complaining about it, because it ain't gonna happen.
- Kingston road was the subject of a prickly debate. Somebody asked why the stretch that is currently undergoing an EA for higher order transit wasn't included in the Transit City plan. Giambrone's response was that 1) Kingston northeast of Eglinton is the area that would provide a much higher potential ridership than the southwest section under EA, and 2) southwest of Eglinton the road has narrower stretches, so it hasn't been determined yet whether a ROW will even fit. This in turn led to a lengthy discussion that concluded that Transit City, though a thouroughly designed model, can still be adjusted.
- Councillor Hall pushed really hard for a north-south line along Highway 27/427. It was funny to watch because she just wouldn't let the issue drop and roundly criticized the guy who did the slide presentation for kind of blowing off the fact that Etobicoke didn't get a north-south line. The most interesting tidbit that came out of this exchange was the fact that an EA for this route has actually been approved already, so it might still wind up on Transit City in the future. I hadn't heard about that anywhere, and it's certainly a great choice for a north-south route in the west end. Also mentioned numerous times was some plan to re-develop the Woodbine racetrack into some "huge" entertainment complex. Have any of you guys heard about this?
- There was a discussion about the gross inefficiencies of the EA process in general and that it was unecessary for transit projects. There was a motion to take up the issue with the province as it's crucial for the status quo to be changed in order to make quick construction of Transit City possible instead of getting one line after another bogged down in years of wasteful EA's at enormous costs.
- King Street ROW: at this point I had been standing at the back for over 3 hours so my attention wavered a bit, but I could swear that the plan for this is that during a 2 month period from July to September of 2008, King will be entirely blocked off to all car traffic (except deliveries for local businesses) between John and Sherbourne, which will be strictly enforced by hiring 8 police officers. The enforcement was agreed to be the key element since past experiments with diamond lanes failed because motorists constantly ignored them. Mihevc and Giambrone were particularly eager about going ahead with this since it's the busiest route and there will be no way to add capacity for at least 4 years. If the project suceeds, they will expand the zone beyond John and Sherbourne to Bathurst and Jarvis, and they also want to try the same thing on Queen. I think it would be amazing if both these streets were to permanently become exclusive transit, cyclist, and pedestrian routes, and that's what they certainly seem to be aiming for, seeing how Giambrone said "drivers can use Richmond and Adelaide instead." Another interesting comment he made was upon hearing another councillor's suggestion to put the Queen streetcar in a tunnel downtown was that such a move would kill the vibrancy of that street. I never really considered that, and he certainly does have a strong point. In any case, it's not going to happen, so might as well eliminate auto traffic there.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
I was just referring to the three lines that will run out to Malvern as I had done elsewhere in the thread.
edit - "The councillors who spoke were all very enthusiastic about the plan, including a couple of Scarborough guys (De Baermaker and Thompson)"
A year ago, Thompson and others were screaming for a subway...their reversal was a stunning defeat and dooms transit in Scarborough forever. A $1.2 billion subway extension that serves over 300,000 people, strongly supports the official plan, and will create a complete circuit once the Sheppard line is finished, would be one of the best things to ever happen to Scarborough.
another edit - "You can, however, talk all you want about how the RT refubishment (not considered to be a part of Transit City) should be ditched in favour of a subway, but this has no bearing on the LRT plan apart from the fact that we'd be back to planning an isolated line in an isolated geographic area which won't be ready for the better part of a decade."
The two plans cannot be separated. If the subway was scrapped to fund an RT extension to "improve transit in Malvern," why are two additional lines being run out to the same place? You don't build a network by concentrating infrastructure in one neighbourhood [of dubious ability to support one rapid transit line, let alone three]. Morningside Heights, the subdivision so important that even Steve Munro thinks it needs rapid transit, is largely populated by new residents in 3000 sq.ft homes backing onto ravines, who oppose sidewalk construction so that they will have room for multiple cars on their driveway. Morningside's not even an 'Avenue' (and neither is Don Mills, or most of Jane or Finch).
The cost of renovating and extending the RT will be a few hundred million less than the cost of extending the subway to STC, but the RT extension will only benefit a minority of its riders, whereas a subway extension benefits virtually all of them, including all the people along Lawrence, McCowan, etc.
I love this city's sliding scale of transit funding: a $400-500 million share of the Spadina extension is the end of the world. $800 million for an RT 'upgrade' seems to be pocket change. $1.2 billion for the SRT subway is astronomical lunacy. And we can't afford not to spend over $2 billion to extend three transit lines to Malvern.
Everything is numbers on a page, quantity over quality, a connect the dot exercise on a transit map rather than city-building. There's at least a dozen other major arterials that could just have easily been selected for LRT lines, like Lawrence and Dufferin. Suddenly, $10, $12, $15 billion will be proposed on streetcar ROWs and only then will someone say, hey, what if we spent $1 billion to get these people onto commuter rail and save them 45 minutes each way? Or hey, what if spent we $2 billion on a subway to relieve the absurd overcrowding on the Eglinton LRT? Or hey, why don't we spend $5 million on a rocket bus network first to see if we even need to spend almost a billion dollars on every arterial road? Will Toronto-style LRT work in some places? Yes. Is it the magical cure for every road in the city? Of course not, but those obsessed with it think so.
I really hope these lines are real light rail and not Spadina streetcars multiplied over longer distances, but this is the TTC, so who knows. If they build it right, some of the new lines will be wonderful, but routes like Sheppard will be a mistake. Back when Kingston had a streetcar, a friend lived way out in east Scarborough and said the round trip to downtown and back was 4-5 hours. We most certainly can't afford to mess this up.
edit - "The councillors who spoke were all very enthusiastic about the plan, including a couple of Scarborough guys (De Baermaker and Thompson)"
A year ago, Thompson and others were screaming for a subway...their reversal was a stunning defeat and dooms transit in Scarborough forever. A $1.2 billion subway extension that serves over 300,000 people, strongly supports the official plan, and will create a complete circuit once the Sheppard line is finished, would be one of the best things to ever happen to Scarborough.
another edit - "You can, however, talk all you want about how the RT refubishment (not considered to be a part of Transit City) should be ditched in favour of a subway, but this has no bearing on the LRT plan apart from the fact that we'd be back to planning an isolated line in an isolated geographic area which won't be ready for the better part of a decade."
The two plans cannot be separated. If the subway was scrapped to fund an RT extension to "improve transit in Malvern," why are two additional lines being run out to the same place? You don't build a network by concentrating infrastructure in one neighbourhood [of dubious ability to support one rapid transit line, let alone three]. Morningside Heights, the subdivision so important that even Steve Munro thinks it needs rapid transit, is largely populated by new residents in 3000 sq.ft homes backing onto ravines, who oppose sidewalk construction so that they will have room for multiple cars on their driveway. Morningside's not even an 'Avenue' (and neither is Don Mills, or most of Jane or Finch).
The cost of renovating and extending the RT will be a few hundred million less than the cost of extending the subway to STC, but the RT extension will only benefit a minority of its riders, whereas a subway extension benefits virtually all of them, including all the people along Lawrence, McCowan, etc.
I love this city's sliding scale of transit funding: a $400-500 million share of the Spadina extension is the end of the world. $800 million for an RT 'upgrade' seems to be pocket change. $1.2 billion for the SRT subway is astronomical lunacy. And we can't afford not to spend over $2 billion to extend three transit lines to Malvern.
Everything is numbers on a page, quantity over quality, a connect the dot exercise on a transit map rather than city-building. There's at least a dozen other major arterials that could just have easily been selected for LRT lines, like Lawrence and Dufferin. Suddenly, $10, $12, $15 billion will be proposed on streetcar ROWs and only then will someone say, hey, what if we spent $1 billion to get these people onto commuter rail and save them 45 minutes each way? Or hey, what if spent we $2 billion on a subway to relieve the absurd overcrowding on the Eglinton LRT? Or hey, why don't we spend $5 million on a rocket bus network first to see if we even need to spend almost a billion dollars on every arterial road? Will Toronto-style LRT work in some places? Yes. Is it the magical cure for every road in the city? Of course not, but those obsessed with it think so.
I really hope these lines are real light rail and not Spadina streetcars multiplied over longer distances, but this is the TTC, so who knows. If they build it right, some of the new lines will be wonderful, but routes like Sheppard will be a mistake. Back when Kingston had a streetcar, a friend lived way out in east Scarborough and said the round trip to downtown and back was 4-5 hours. We most certainly can't afford to mess this up.
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dashingdan
Guest
Scarberians everywhere should be rioting that VCC is getting a subway before SCC. Seriously.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Guest
Re: Eglinton, from the Post:
A revived rapid transit
Peter Kuitenbrouwer, National Post
Published: Thursday, March 22, 2007
Schedulers at the Toronto Transit Commission give the 32B Eglinton Avenue West bus one hour to make the round trip from the subway at Yonge Street to Creek Bank in Mississauga, just shy of Dixie Road.
Lumbering up and down the hilly avenue, stuck in heavy traffic --particularly where the Allen Expressway ends and unceremoniously dumps highway traffic onto the city street -- the bus rarely makes it in the allotted time.
"I usually take an hour and five, an hour and 10 minutes," Ashok Kapur, my driver on the 32B, said yesterday. At 9:45 a.m., the bus was packed as we headed west from Scarlett Road into Etobicoke. Riders wore hijabs, leopard-print pillbox hats and New York Yankee baseball caps.
Nick Alampi, chairman of the York and Eglinton Business Improvement Association, stands outside his clothing store on Eglinton Avenue West yesterday. Alampi favours a rapid transit system in his area, provided the city builds parking lots, too. "We're trying every way to get people to come on Eglinton and shop."View Larger Image View Larger Image
Nick Alampi, chairman of the York and Eglinton Business Improvement Association, stands outside his clothing store on Eglinton Avenue West yesterday. Alampi favours a rapid transit system in his area, provided the city builds parking lots, too. "We're trying every way to get people to come on Eglinton and shop."
Transit on Eglinton, Toronto's main east-west street, has a chequered past. In the early 1980s, workers paved over the Eglinton West streetcar line, substituting this bus.
In July of 1995, 1,240 construction workers were at work at Eglinton and Allen, digging the Eglinton subway line, when then-premier Mike Harris cancelled the project, after the province had spent $91-million. Workers filled in the hole.
Last Friday, Adam Giambrone, chairman of the TTC, said he will revive rapid transit on Eglinton, with the 31-kilometre Eglinton Crosstown Corridor.
"Light rail service would operate on the surface in a dedicated right-of-way from Kennedy Station to approximately Laird Drive, then underground to Keele Street, and then again on the surface in a dedicated right of way to Mississauga and Pearson airport," the report says. Cost: $2.2- billion. Completion: 2021.
Let's face it: Mr. Giambrone is reviving the Eglinton subway line, though in a stealthy way as "light rail." This is great news. Right now, with our lone east-west subway line at Bloor (oh, yeah, and a five-station stump on Sheppard) Toronto is the laughingstock of big cities. Even Montreal has three east-west lines.
I spent yesterday on Eglinton Avenue West around Dufferin Street, which new street signs call the "International Market." Delicacies, from Jamaican patties to prosciutto to kefalograviera (fine Greek cheese) abound, but the area has felt abandoned by City Hall, and today feels renewed hope in the promise of rapid transit. "If Mel Lastman was the mayor of York, we would have the subway already," says Angelo Zito, owner of Verdi Produce, a destination for grocery shoppers on Eglinton at Times Road for 21 years, where boxes of panatone hang from the ceiling. Mr. Zito loves rapid transit.
"If I want to go to a game, I look forward to taking the subway," he says. "I don't even touch the car. People don't realize how effective a subway is. For me to get to the ACC takes only 14 minutes."
Across the street at Raps, a Caribbean food restaurant, owner Horace Rose, serving his customers chicken soup and baked fish, also applauds rapid transit here. "In London you can just go on the tube to the airport and you're there in a short period of time," he said. "I would rate it, you know, a go."
Some here prefer an Eglinton subway. My bus driver, Mr. Kapur, concurs.
"With a streetcar, if something goes wrong in one spot the whole line stops," he says, noting that subways are sheltered from snow and ice.
But digging a tunnel from Laird to Keele will be wildly expensive. (Double the city's estimates, TTC commissioner Peter Milczyn tells me.) Mr. Giambrone may wish to consider what I'd call the Amsterdam solution: slam through light rail on a street-level Eglinton right-ofway, leave one lane each way for traffic (plus a bike lane each way) and remove all parking from Eglinton. (All the doctors in Forest Hill are going to lynch me for this suggestion.)
Nick Alampi, chairman of the York and Eglinton Business Improvement Association, favours a streetcar at grade with its own lane. Provided, he says, the city builds parking lots, too.
"We're trying every way to get people to come on Eglinton and shop," says Mr. Alampi, who grew up above Andrew's Formals, which he now co-owns with his sister Carmella.
Penny Haloulos, of Nick & Penny's, which sells Greek products, agrees. "So many people say to me, 'I see your sign from the window of the bus.' "
Broad consensus: yes to rapid transit on Eglinton. And could it come a bit faster, please?
Pkuitenbrouwer@nationalpost.com
AoD
A revived rapid transit
Peter Kuitenbrouwer, National Post
Published: Thursday, March 22, 2007
Schedulers at the Toronto Transit Commission give the 32B Eglinton Avenue West bus one hour to make the round trip from the subway at Yonge Street to Creek Bank in Mississauga, just shy of Dixie Road.
Lumbering up and down the hilly avenue, stuck in heavy traffic --particularly where the Allen Expressway ends and unceremoniously dumps highway traffic onto the city street -- the bus rarely makes it in the allotted time.
"I usually take an hour and five, an hour and 10 minutes," Ashok Kapur, my driver on the 32B, said yesterday. At 9:45 a.m., the bus was packed as we headed west from Scarlett Road into Etobicoke. Riders wore hijabs, leopard-print pillbox hats and New York Yankee baseball caps.
Nick Alampi, chairman of the York and Eglinton Business Improvement Association, stands outside his clothing store on Eglinton Avenue West yesterday. Alampi favours a rapid transit system in his area, provided the city builds parking lots, too. "We're trying every way to get people to come on Eglinton and shop."View Larger Image View Larger Image
Nick Alampi, chairman of the York and Eglinton Business Improvement Association, stands outside his clothing store on Eglinton Avenue West yesterday. Alampi favours a rapid transit system in his area, provided the city builds parking lots, too. "We're trying every way to get people to come on Eglinton and shop."
Transit on Eglinton, Toronto's main east-west street, has a chequered past. In the early 1980s, workers paved over the Eglinton West streetcar line, substituting this bus.
In July of 1995, 1,240 construction workers were at work at Eglinton and Allen, digging the Eglinton subway line, when then-premier Mike Harris cancelled the project, after the province had spent $91-million. Workers filled in the hole.
Last Friday, Adam Giambrone, chairman of the TTC, said he will revive rapid transit on Eglinton, with the 31-kilometre Eglinton Crosstown Corridor.
"Light rail service would operate on the surface in a dedicated right-of-way from Kennedy Station to approximately Laird Drive, then underground to Keele Street, and then again on the surface in a dedicated right of way to Mississauga and Pearson airport," the report says. Cost: $2.2- billion. Completion: 2021.
Let's face it: Mr. Giambrone is reviving the Eglinton subway line, though in a stealthy way as "light rail." This is great news. Right now, with our lone east-west subway line at Bloor (oh, yeah, and a five-station stump on Sheppard) Toronto is the laughingstock of big cities. Even Montreal has three east-west lines.
I spent yesterday on Eglinton Avenue West around Dufferin Street, which new street signs call the "International Market." Delicacies, from Jamaican patties to prosciutto to kefalograviera (fine Greek cheese) abound, but the area has felt abandoned by City Hall, and today feels renewed hope in the promise of rapid transit. "If Mel Lastman was the mayor of York, we would have the subway already," says Angelo Zito, owner of Verdi Produce, a destination for grocery shoppers on Eglinton at Times Road for 21 years, where boxes of panatone hang from the ceiling. Mr. Zito loves rapid transit.
"If I want to go to a game, I look forward to taking the subway," he says. "I don't even touch the car. People don't realize how effective a subway is. For me to get to the ACC takes only 14 minutes."
Across the street at Raps, a Caribbean food restaurant, owner Horace Rose, serving his customers chicken soup and baked fish, also applauds rapid transit here. "In London you can just go on the tube to the airport and you're there in a short period of time," he said. "I would rate it, you know, a go."
Some here prefer an Eglinton subway. My bus driver, Mr. Kapur, concurs.
"With a streetcar, if something goes wrong in one spot the whole line stops," he says, noting that subways are sheltered from snow and ice.
But digging a tunnel from Laird to Keele will be wildly expensive. (Double the city's estimates, TTC commissioner Peter Milczyn tells me.) Mr. Giambrone may wish to consider what I'd call the Amsterdam solution: slam through light rail on a street-level Eglinton right-ofway, leave one lane each way for traffic (plus a bike lane each way) and remove all parking from Eglinton. (All the doctors in Forest Hill are going to lynch me for this suggestion.)
Nick Alampi, chairman of the York and Eglinton Business Improvement Association, favours a streetcar at grade with its own lane. Provided, he says, the city builds parking lots, too.
"We're trying every way to get people to come on Eglinton and shop," says Mr. Alampi, who grew up above Andrew's Formals, which he now co-owns with his sister Carmella.
Penny Haloulos, of Nick & Penny's, which sells Greek products, agrees. "So many people say to me, 'I see your sign from the window of the bus.' "
Broad consensus: yes to rapid transit on Eglinton. And could it come a bit faster, please?
Pkuitenbrouwer@nationalpost.com
AoD
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roch5220
Guest
Re: the SRT. Your 3 points are totally irrelevant in this case. A subway extension to STC would be cheaper than the proposed LRTs, could be built faster, and would help more people.
I don't know what you mean by that. The '3' lrt lines provide a lot more city coverage no matter where they end up. Shouldn't the additional coverage area help more people, in addition to those already served by the SRT, and will continue to serve?
Another thing, isn't the main issue with the SRT is that the vehciles are not big enough, and that no additional vehicles can be bought because they are not being built, and Vancouver won't sell any excess vehicles for their own purposes?. Its not that the line itself is technically at capacity, its the variables that make the current setup at capacity.
Subway would be nice, but the ridership in the SRT corridor just isn't there. 2005 ridership per direction per hour is only 4,500 rides, and the TTC projects with a subway, that would increase to only 7,500 by 2021. If you look at pg 13 of the below slide show, it doesn't scream subway construction, more that, LRT is more than suitable. You could also get rid of the SRT entirely and replace it with a street route LRT ROW, and it still wouldn't be overcapacity if the route had the proper amount of vehicles (even though the study crosses it out of consideration). And those people, as you said, would have '3' LRT lines to choose to ride on.
Alternatively, does anyone know if the TTC has inquired about how much it would cost to custom make additional vehicles to run on the SRT? The additional run costs could be shared with Vancouver, if they choose to also stock up for the future.
www.toronto.ca/srtstudy/p...tation.pdf
I
interchange42
Guest
Towered: you were asking about development plans for the Woodbine Race Track? Check out
The Cordish Co.
for the developer, and
Woodbine Live
for the site's homepage.
42
The Cordish Co.
for the developer, and
Woodbine Live
for the site's homepage.
42
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Roch5220 - If a subway extension to STC used all of or nearly the full capacity of a subway, how would you expect people west of Kennedy to use the line?
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cacruden
Guest
The Eglington Underground LRT sounds interesting. If it is runs like a subway line, and it is underground -- then it should work great (assuming someone does not mess it up) i.e. Laird to Keele.
What I hope they look at is the interconnection between this new like and the existing northbound GO lines -- maybe extending the most efficient underground section out a little to intersect the (I am not overly familiar with GO - so it is based on map):
- Georgetown Line
- Bradford Line
- Richmond Hill Line
... and provide a common stations between the LRT and GO.
They should also look at straightening the Richmond line -- looks really squiggly (I am guessing trains have to move slower - but again I am not overly familiar with GO). There seems to be a line (maybe freight) that shoots off to dupont (just before hitting the richmond line) that might provide the basis of straightening the GO line out.
I would still like to see GO use a lighter stock of electrified rail cars, and integrate with the TTC (in a zone based system).
Any ideas if this is feasible within current plans?
What I hope they look at is the interconnection between this new like and the existing northbound GO lines -- maybe extending the most efficient underground section out a little to intersect the (I am not overly familiar with GO - so it is based on map):
- Georgetown Line
- Bradford Line
- Richmond Hill Line
... and provide a common stations between the LRT and GO.
They should also look at straightening the Richmond line -- looks really squiggly (I am guessing trains have to move slower - but again I am not overly familiar with GO). There seems to be a line (maybe freight) that shoots off to dupont (just before hitting the richmond line) that might provide the basis of straightening the GO line out.
I would still like to see GO use a lighter stock of electrified rail cars, and integrate with the TTC (in a zone based system).
Any ideas if this is feasible within current plans?
A
Antiloop33rpm
Guest
I would still like to see GO use a lighter stock of electrified rail cars, and integrate with the TTC (in a zone based system).
Any ideas if this is feasible within current plans?
Simple answer, no, it is not possible today. I you want to know why exactly there is a detailed discussion on regional rail and GO transit in Toronto in this thread.
Edit: In case people don't want to read through all the thread here is a simple summary. GO transit is at the mercy of freight companies that own most of the rail lines, and until that changes, it has minimal options for meaningful expansion. So running electrified train sets at 15 minute frequencies is not going to happen until huge structural and ownership over rail lines takes place. As for fare integration, that is in the hands of the GTAA, municipal and city transit agencies, and too some extent local politicians. I wouldn't count on this happening this year, or even the next, but, at least with the GTTA there is now a chance that the nonsense of local politicians can be ignored and the agency can step up and take a leading role in implementing a more integrated regional network.
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roch5220
Guest
Roch5220 - If a subway extension to STC used all of or nearly the full capacity of a subway, how would you expect people west of Kennedy to use the line?
I don't disagree with that logic. But what it points to is that another cheaper mode of rapid transit can be considered. To spend a billion on an extension to serve 3000 more peak riders per hour, especially when the rest of the city is going LRT would be a cause of concern. For subway construction, I would put it near top of the list as STC connection is important as I would like to see it looped with the sheppard line, but unfortunately LRT seems to be the bandaid solution, even when major surgery seems to be the most practical approach. Construction of subways in this city seems out the door (as it takes so dam long to become reality), that LRT looks like a better option. And with this LRT network, if it gets built and is successful, you probably will see a further decentralization of travel (ie., people going downtown - instead, along LRT lines as well as subway lines) that significant ridership will not materialize along a route to warrant further subway.
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cacruden
Guest
Simple answer, no, it is not possible today. I you want to know why exactly there is a detailed discussion on regional rail and GO transit in Toronto in this thread.
Today is not a major issue, that line is scheduled to be completed in 2021.
Edit: In case people don't want to read through all the thread here is a simple summary. GO transit is at the mercy of freight companies that own most of the rail lines, and until that changes, it has minimal options for meaningful expansion.
I know there has been talk on this issue, and talk of "consolidation" of freight lines, and the purchase of the GO rail lines in the past (just talk though). The problem is that no-one is taking a holistic view today, ordering things patch-work. Talk of new non-electric vehicles etc. While at the same time, they are planning something for the GTAA with GO, since they folded GO into a new crown corporation. What will probably happen, is that they will go out and buy new equipment for the lines, then start talking about upgrading GO service and that money will be wasted.
U
unimaginative2
Guest
3000 is a number that Soberman pulled out of his hat in a report designed entirely to justify his recommendation that refurbishing the RT is the way to go. There are at least 3000 riders already taking routes out of their way to avoid the overcrowded and unreliable RT. That figure doesn't come close to including the number of riders induced to switch to the TTC because of the much faster and easier trip, nor the many people who would choose to live in Scarborough Centre if direct subway service were available.
That aside, no city in the world would want more than 8000 riders an hour at its terminal station. It just doesn't make sense. I guarantee there weren't 8000 riders an hour out to Woodbine when they first built the BD line, and nobody considers that a failure. Find out how many people ride the A train out to the Rockaways. I guarantee it isn't 8000 an hour.
Obviously, at some point out from the core, it becomes necessary to step down to a lower order of transit. It's glaringly clear that such a place in Scarborough is the City Centre. Bus routes from all over Scarborough radiate there. Kennedy is an arbitrary point where planners back in the 70s decided to stop building. If they had any idea how successful Scarborough Centre would be, there's absolutely no question that they would have continued the line.
If you ask nearly anybody in northern or eastern Scarborough, I guarantee that they would happily give up an RT extension to Markham and Sheppard in exchange for a subway to Scarborough Centre. It benefits everyone, even the few dozen people living at Markham and Sheppard. Nobody's going to take the streetcar from Morningside Heights down to Kennedy station to get downtown. It would be a 45 minute trip just to Kennedy. The few from Morningside Heights taking transit downtown will still go through Scarborough Centre, especially if it were right on the subway. They woulud benefit far, far more from a Neilson express bus on the 401 with shoulder bus lanes, connecting to the BD subway at SCC.
That aside, no city in the world would want more than 8000 riders an hour at its terminal station. It just doesn't make sense. I guarantee there weren't 8000 riders an hour out to Woodbine when they first built the BD line, and nobody considers that a failure. Find out how many people ride the A train out to the Rockaways. I guarantee it isn't 8000 an hour.
Obviously, at some point out from the core, it becomes necessary to step down to a lower order of transit. It's glaringly clear that such a place in Scarborough is the City Centre. Bus routes from all over Scarborough radiate there. Kennedy is an arbitrary point where planners back in the 70s decided to stop building. If they had any idea how successful Scarborough Centre would be, there's absolutely no question that they would have continued the line.
If you ask nearly anybody in northern or eastern Scarborough, I guarantee that they would happily give up an RT extension to Markham and Sheppard in exchange for a subway to Scarborough Centre. It benefits everyone, even the few dozen people living at Markham and Sheppard. Nobody's going to take the streetcar from Morningside Heights down to Kennedy station to get downtown. It would be a 45 minute trip just to Kennedy. The few from Morningside Heights taking transit downtown will still go through Scarborough Centre, especially if it were right on the subway. They woulud benefit far, far more from a Neilson express bus on the 401 with shoulder bus lanes, connecting to the BD subway at SCC.