[kEiThZ]

^ Yet this is the downside of TC. It doesn't lend itself to incremental expansion. Buses and streetcars (non-LRT) and subways (to some extent do. While future capacity is important, what I find most bothersome about TC is that it doesn't address current needs. That Dufferin rider gets nothing. TC just assumes he'll automatically choose a nearby LRT and incur extra transfers if need be.

And Steve's just upset that he won't get his legacy. Where will he get another politician like Miller who bought into Steve's vision hook, line and sinker? Unfortunately for him, the money will come later, but the vision that it will fund could be different.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Keithz:

Actually unfortunately for all of us, we have a rather illustrious history of being promised something and not getting anything, regardless of mode. That has nothing to do with legacy.

AoD

 

[Justin10000]

^ Yet this is the downside of TC. It doesn't lend itself to incremental expansion. Buses and streetcars (non-LRT) and subways (to some extent do. While future capacity is important, what I find most bothersome about TC is that it doesn't address current needs. That Dufferin rider gets nothing. TC just assumes he'll automatically choose a nearby LRT and incur extra transfers if need be.

The Finch West bus is crowded and slow, The East/West Eglinton buses are crowded, and slow. You're saying LRT in it's own ROW will not improve service on these routes? I would like to see you explain to residents in Rexdale why a subway that might reach their neighboourhood in 20-30 years is better than LRT in 5. Transit City does address current needs, but you're just blinded by modal bias to notice.

And Steve's just upset that he won't get his legacy. Where will he get another politician like Miller who bought into Steve's vision hook, line and sinker? Unfortunately for him, the money will come later, but the vision that it will fund could be different.

If the province is not going fund simple LRT lines, good luck in getting money for hugely expensive subway lines. It's not about legacy, it's about politician treating transit as something not important.

 

[kEiThZ]

The Finch West bus is crowded and slow, The East/West Eglinton buses are crowded, and slow. You're saying LRT in it's own ROW will not improve service on these routes? I would like to see you explain to residents in Rexdale why a subway that might reach their neighboourhood in 20-30 years is better than LRT in 5. Transit City does address current needs, but you're just blinded by modal bias to notice.

Really? And you have no bias at all? Why can't we just build extra lanes (or take away lanes) and reserve them for buses now? Why do we have to wait for years to lay down track and buy LRVs?

And for the record I do support LRTs in some corridors (Finch West for one). The STC-Malvern corridor was another good candidate for LRT. Ditto for Don Mills. Etc. What I don't support is a one-size fits all approach. Just as subway isn't right for every situation. The same goes for LRT. If you are going to have LRT on Sheppard, fine. But why cut off any potential for future Sheppard subway extension at the knees? Why not at least extend the subway to Agincourt and have the LRT meet it there? It is this kind of blatant attempt at stifling subway growth (particularly in Scarborough) that got me into this debate. Had they been the slightest bit more even handed, I probably would not have bothered.

If the province is not going fund simple LRT lines, good luck in getting money for hugely expensive subway lines.

It's as much about how you spend the money, as it is about how much you get. We are building LRTs because that's what the city asked for. Had they asked for subways that's what we could have gotten. Even now, if the city were to suggest that Eglinton should be a subway eventually, I doubt Metrolinx or Queen's Park would categorically reject the suggestion. But if it costs more, it might take longer to get there. You'd probably see incremental subway expansion on Eglinton as opposed to a single LRT line built in one shot.

 

[Fresh Start]

The Finch West bus is crowded and slow, The East/West Eglinton buses are crowded, and slow. You're saying LRT in it's own ROW will not improve service on these routes? I would like to see you explain to residents in Rexdale why a subway that might reach their neighboourhood in 20-30 years is better than LRT in 5. Transit City does address current needs, but you're just blinded by modal bias to notice.

The whole Transit City model sucks. We're building subways to Vaughan yet streetcars in TO. Mention one city the size of Toronto, with as much sprawl and so much suburban commuters that wants to reward its own citizenry with slow streetcars while fast regional rail zooms by. A guy in Ajax can get to Yonge and King faster then residents in New Toronto (Lakeshore and Islington) can. I can even bike there quicker than taking a streetcar. Transit City does not address periphery-to-core travel patterns adequately at all, only a suburbs to suburbs approach where demand is far too low to justify the exorbitant costs. The way 36 Finch West exists today will not look that way in five years time. You'll be hard-pressed to find the cattle-car overcrowding onto buses at Yonge St that persists today once Rexdale residents find out that they have an alternative subway line which feeds relatively close into their neighbourhood. Finch West barely fits the requirements for light-rail and I can post images of suburban LRT from other cities that allude to the type of corridors that do.

I do think that Transit City needs a rethink. I am not too sure that streetcars are the way to go. What about more dedicated bus/carpool lanes, one way streets, no left turns and more buses, particularly articulated ones powered by clean-burning CNG or ULSD which can carry 150 passengers per trip and run at better headways than every 5 minutes? I think this could be a much cheaper and faster to initiate alternative than the upheavel several more 512 St. Clair-like constructions are going to cause to stable neighbourhoods and small businesses and motorists and pedestrians and transit-users for years on end.

If the province is not going fund simple LRT lines, good luck in getting money for hugely expensive subway lines. It's not about legacy, it's about politician treating transit as something not important.

Whats wrong with questioning Transit City? A downtown relief subway line is needed to manage the people who cannot get around downtown. No need to bring more people in until we can get that problem's solved. It's common sense. $8 billion might not build as many kilometres of new subway track as it would light-rail, but by using a variety of methods and trimming down the largesse spending habits of the TTC; it's feasible to assume that between 20-30 kilometres could get built. And most of the voting public would prefer that to LRT, even to wind up with another stubway or two.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The Finch West bus is crowded and slow, The East/West Eglinton buses are crowded, and slow. You're saying LRT in it's own ROW will not improve service on these routes? I would like to see you explain to residents in Rexdale why a subway that might reach their neighboourhood in 20-30 years is better than LRT in 5. Transit City does address current needs, but you're just blinded by modal bias to notice.

So you are admitting that TC is better because it's faster?

Keithz is right, if the city asked for subways, it would have gotten subways. And if it took an extra 5 or even 10 years, I'd much rather want a completed Eglinton or Sheppard subway than a LRT.

 

[kEiThZ]

The best metaphor that I've heard regarding transit expansion is from an Ottawa city councillor who compared transit expansion to the building of ancient cathedrals and temples. Those didn't get finished in a single lifetime. Sometimes they didn't get finished in two lifetimes. But they didn't cut corners. They worked steadily at them and did it right, from start to finish. That's what I would like to see.

Why only a 15 year quick gratification plan (relatively speaking...when we're talking transit in TO). Why not a 50 year plan that gets incremental expansion, with small but solid improvements each year. I don't think anybody would have any issues if they expanded the Sheppard subway from Jane till STC, but took 10 years to do it. As long as we get one more stop each year, we'll all be better off.

And this approach doesn't exclude LRT either. The way I see it, LRT would be built to complement the subway and regional rail networks as time goes on.

 

[kEiThZ]

While I am no fan of cutting back transit funding, I think there's some value in having a bit of a breather to take stock of the situation. By the time we start looking at pumping more money into transit again, we'll have much more stats and data. We'll have the TYSSE completed. That should let us know how much demand there really is on Finch West once the subway is there. We'll have the SELRT and the SRT refurbishment and extension in place. And we'll get to see how well LRT works in Toronto's inner suburbs (particularly how well the TTC manages LRT lines). We'll also get to see a direct comparison between grade separated LRT (SRT) and at-grade, non-segregated operations (SELRT). We'll get to see how the public responds to LRT. Will they actually move over from other corridors to ride the LRT? Hhow much do they prefer LRT to other modes? And how do they feel about the transfers? And more importantly how do they feel about the cost/value proposition of LRT vs. other modes (would they rather have less subway with the same dollars?). In 2-3 years time, we'll be able to have a far more mature dialogue with the public about transit in this city. And we'll know a lot more about what works and doesn't. That should hopefully, help a bit when money does start flowing again.

 

[nfitz]

And if it took an extra 5 or even 10 years, I'd much rather want a completed Eglinton or Sheppard subway than a LRT.

An extra 5 to 10 years? More like an extra 5 to 10 decades. TTC has been talking about an Eglinton subway since the 1960s!

 

[Justin10000]

Really? And you have no bias at all? Why can't we just build extra lanes (or take away lanes) and reserve them for buses now? Why do we have to wait for years to lay down track and buy LRVs?
And for the record I do support LRTs in some corridors (Finch West for one). The STC-Malvern corridor was another good candidate for LRT. Ditto for Don Mills. Etc. What I don't support is a one-size fits all approach. Just as subway isn't right for every situation. The same goes for LRT. If you are going to have LRT on Sheppard, fine. But why cut off any potential for future Sheppard subway extension at the knees? Why not at least extend the subway to Agincourt and have the LRT meet it there? It is this kind of blatant attempt at stifling subway growth (particularly in Scarborough) that got me into this debate. Had they been the slightest bit more even handed, I probably would not have bothered.

Come with a model to prove that BRT is good enough. The city showed that LRT is good enough for the corridors, and transit experts seem to agree. Prove them wrong. Considering one activist picked apart SOS's original plan handily, you may have a tough time.

It's as much about how you spend the money, as it is about how much you get. We are building LRTs because that's what the city asked for. Had they asked for subways that's what we could have gotten. Even now, if the city were to suggest that Eglinton should be a subway eventually, I doubt Metrolinx or Queen's Park would categorically reject the suggestion. But if it costs more, it might take longer to get there. You'd probably see incremental subway expansion on Eglinton as opposed to a single LRT line built in one shot.

The demand for the TC corridors does not justify subways. Why cannot you(and others) not understand this? I would rather see Eglinton LRT be built in 7-8 years, rather than a subway built in 20-30 years.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Keithz:

The best metaphor that I've heard regarding transit expansion is from an Ottawa city councillor who compared transit expansion to the building of ancient cathedrals and temples. Those didn't get finished in a single lifetime. Sometimes they didn't get finished in two lifetimes. But they didn't cut corners. They worked steadily at them and did it right, from start to finish. That's what I would like to see.

That metaphor is flawed - unlike Cathedrals, transit is meant to solve very real and urgent problems which cannot afford getting every aspect right beforehand at the cost of not doing anything. And the church doesn't have to go out and convince the pesky electorate that building cathedrals is the way to go, and failing to do so, get replaced by those who doesn't feel that way.

To those who think LRT (or heck, even streetcars) isn't a valid step in between buses and subways - keep in mind how the subways in Toronto got started.

AoD

 

[Second_in_pie]

While obviously we're not expecting a subway to be finished over generations, the metaphor is sound. A transit network won't be all better after 40 years of stagnation and as a core for future transit in 10 years. It takes much longer than that. If you said this to any other transit agency in the world, they'd call you crazy and send you out.

AoD, you don't think that cathedral builders had to negotiate politics? There certainly were problems like having good food, and the people collectively build the cathedral; it's not as though they were at an imperative.
And there's modern cathedrals that go through the same buildings as the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona, or even the still incomplete Cathedral of the Transfiguration. Modern examples of people perservering for what to many is much more trivial than in integral transit backbone for a quickly growing region of 8 million. And then there's actual transit systems and subway networks that have been built up over the decades...

To those who think LRT (or heck, even streetcars) isn't a valid step in between buses and subways - keep in mind how the subways in Toronto got started.

Yes... from streetcars. But remember how we got rid of all of those for busses? Back then, streetcars served basically the same purpose as busses do now. So that's not saying much.

 

[EnviroTO]

History is littered with plans where subways were asked for but were either not approved or funded and then had funding cut back. The Transit City plan was a plan to build as much as possible as cheaply as possible and 6 LRT lines and an SRT were asked for, 3 LRT lines and an SRT were "funded", and now even that has been cut back. So much for getting what you ask for. Bringing up the DRL in the discussion is blowing smoke because Transit City and the DRL don't overlap. The official plan and a myriad of TTC documents agree that something drastic is required in the King/Queen corridor and Transit City wasn't meant to address it. Bringing up the DRL as a reason to question Transit City is like arguing that the DRL is a bad idea because existing bus routes are too slow in the suburbs. It is completely unrelated and if Transit City was a subway plan which didn't include the DRL I doubt these same people would call for the plug to be pulled on it.

 

[EnviroTO]

AoD, you don't think that cathedral builders had to negotiate politics? There certainly were problems like having good food, and the people collectively build the cathedral; it's not as though they were at an imperative.

You don't think the potential wrath of god made the work imperative? Church at the time has serious control over thought and could make people outcasts in a heartbeat. If there wasn't enough food then they had better get the cathedral built or god might not deliver a plentiful crop.

 

[Second_in_pie]

So do you not think that transit building is important to a functioning city? Face the facts: Transit City is not good as a solution to the future of the city. If we let transit continue to stagnate relative to the region's growth, it'll be a disaster.

So perhaps, subways over LRT is like building amazing cathedrals over regular churches. God likes cathedrals better, but churches "still do the trick." However, people still built these massive, towering cathedrals which took generations to build. Don't take that as the official metaphor, and you're looking into the original metaphor way, way too deeply, but try it on.