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Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
I think most people who are supportive of TC are supportive because it is doable in the short term, not because it is the best option when there is unlimited funding. The vast majority of TC supporters simply see a bird in the hand as worth two in the bush, and see the idea that funding for subways will automatically show up because someone wishes it to as highly unlikely. The city can't wait for subways to criss cross the city when a decade tends to produce only four or five stations. Get TC built and then look at capacity constraints. Transit City will undoubtedly lead to increased ridership and those riders will cause a change in priorities such as forcing the need for DRL, forcing the need for station capacity improvements, forcing the need for better GO fare integration and improved transfer stations, forcing the need for greater grade separation on the at grade portions of Transit City, etc. Transit City is not the end... it is a beginning so that todays tax payers on Eglinton, Finch, Don Mills, and Sheppard East can see improvements before they retire and no longer need it. Half of the current tax payers will be retired in 20 years so a plan that delivers beyond that time frame is irrelevant to them. Current plans deliver Finch, Sheppard East, and Eglinton in 10, and Don Mills, Jane, Morningside/Kingston, Waterfront, and DRL in 20. The cancelling of TC for a subway line which would take 4 years to get a shovel in the ground would have only some small improvement in 10 years, and another small improvement in 20 years, and replace LRT with BRT running when gas prices are high.
 
Eglinton will be just fine as LRT. Sheppard is just fine as LRT. Don Mills is just fine as LRT. These aren't the case.

They are currently buses. LRT is an upgrade from that. If all the money is plowed into an Eglinton subway from the airport to Kennedy and a subway to SCC to replace the SRT.... what will be on Don Mills and Sheppard then? This debate is like the choice to either give two people $40k and two $0, or to give four people $20k. Perhaps it is hard to live with $20k but it sure beats trying to live with $0!
 
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Why not just extend the SRT north to Malvern and then when it hits Kennedy it can run east along the rail ROW parrel to Eglinton and then when it hits Laird it head south to Castl Frank and then down to Queen for tunnel DRL.
Were it splits at laird it could go underground like the LRT for about 10 km as suggested and then head to the airport..............an Eglinton ICTS could go from kennedy east but due to interlining it wouuld save a fortune. Another great thing about interlining is that you don't even have to leave the platform to transfer. Workd great in Vancouver and it's wonderful.
In short.............Malvern-kennedy-Eglington ICTS interline-Castle Frank-Queen-Queen/GO line..Humber with Eglinton-Kennedy-ICTS interline-Laird-Airport.
It would save having to build the BD Kennedy ext, Don Mills LRT, Kingston Road LRT, save money by an interline with Eglinton corridor, provide DRL, Pearson connection for Real Torontonians who don't have $20 each way to get to work, serve Humber so you can ditch the Finch LRT.
VERY affordable, serves all areas of the city, and could EASILY {atleast for the rest of the planet} be completed in 8 to 10 years.
 
You want to pay more for less? Because that's what is going to happen here if you want what you're asking for. Personally, I'd like to see a higher order transit network of some kind before I die.

So you're playing the SRT card to demonstrate the follies of LRT? Come on....

A poorly planned line with the majority of stations serving commercial/industrial areas run on old and original experimental technology.

At least with the conversion and extension, more residents and centennial will be served, along with a key connection at Sheppard. Oh, and the bonus of having vehicles running after a heavy snowfall!

You're already going to be paying more for less because Toronto-style LRT will cost $80 miilion/km what costs other cities $30-$40 million per kilometre, where they have even more intricate desgin detail including side-of-roadway or grade-separated ROW. I'm not going to get all excited to ride aboard something that's no more technologically advanced than what's already running along St Clair or Spadina. I'll ride it if I have no alternative, but I know that the money could be invested in a lot better ways. If the public's not convinced of speed, time, reliability advantages of LRT vs. what was in place prior, it will not generate anywhere as many new riders to justify its high costs for a long time to come.

You would get a transit network some time before your death if the gov'ts reinstated provincial operational funding, a national RTP initiative began, and the private-sector was brought in to competitively bid on routes and services. Funding from multiple sources including public bonds could generate the kind of revenue needed to expand the one true mode which counts in this city... SUBWAYS. A network is not that far off via subways with Eglinton, Sheppard-SCC and DRL being the major missing links. LRT is untried and untested in this whole entire region, we only have the TTC's track record with streetcars as the public's litmus test that it'll be successful. So tell me, is it worth blowing billions of dollars on something that is just as experimental a technology for the region as ICTS was back in the 80s? If anything, trasnsit projects in Toronto will not be delayed due to any prolonged debate on whether subways are better than LRT; it will be because by propping up LRT from out of nowhere, TC has obstructed all the heavily researched and analyzed long-time projects that were next in line to be built from being built.
 
Subway to STC: At least 1.2 Billion, and around a decade to plan, design, and build. SRT Conversion to LRT: Around $350 Million, 3-4 years, and will double capacity, and be part of a network for Scarborough. Sorry dude, keep on dreaming. A subway to STC is not happening, and shouldn't happen for the near future.

What are you going on about? The SRT conversion and extension will cost $1.2 billion, at least. Therefore its cost-neutral to extend the Bloor-Danforth to SCC. The deadline by which the projects are completed is wholly dependent on the efficient of the staff working the line. Who wouldathunk it'd take over 4 years to finish St Clair. At least by building a subway to SCC along an entirely different route than the current SRT ROW there wouldn't be massive service disruptions during the construction period to a Places to Grow urban centre. When the TTC would sooner extend subways to out-of-town urban centres than one within our borders that sets a terrible precedent.

Is the SRT in it's current form LRT? You get a gold star if you know the answer.

ICTS would be preferrable to what Toronto's poised to get. At least its full separation guarantees a speed/time advantage when commuting over long distances. Too bad about our winters though.
 
What are you going on about? The SRT conversion and extension will cost $1.2 billion, at least. Therefore its cost-neutral to extend the Bloor-Danforth to SCC. The deadline by which the projects are completed is wholly dependent on the efficient of the staff working the line. Who wouldathunk it'd take over 4 years to finish St Clair. At least by building a subway to SCC along an entirely different route than the current SRT ROW there wouldn't be massive service disruptions during the construction period to a Places to Grow urban centre. When the TTC would sooner extend subways to out-of-town urban centres than one within our borders that sets a terrible precedent.

I am talking solely about the conversion of the current SRT, and not any extensions. But let's play the cost-neutral game. For 1.2 Billion,you are extending the S(L)RT to Malvern, and will serve Centennial College, essentially allowing riders the option of not having to transfer at STC. What are you getting with the subway? Still the same annoying transfer at STC to slow buses. I fail to see the benefit at this point in time.

ICTS would be preferrable to what Toronto's poised to get. At least its full separation guarantees a speed/time advantage when commuting over long distances. Too bad about our winters though.

The LRT is going to be mostly grade-separated, and larger vehicles. Capacity will be doubled. Tell me why a technology derided by so many citizens is preferable? The last time I rode the SRT, I remember I could barely hear my Ipod due to the noise. Has that issue been addressed yet?
 
Who? Seriously. Name one person.

The current administration. All they had on the books was TC....and some preliminary discussion for Yonge North. They didn't evne put any serious brainstorming into the DRL.

Again, if we're wrong, since you seem to be a strong TC proponent, just share with us what subway expansion should occur in this city, in your opinion. I see a lot of you saying you do support subway expansion. Nobody is sharing specifics. Could it be because you don't really support subway expansion beyond token words saying you do?
 
They are currently buses. LRT is an upgrade from that. If all the money is plowed into an Eglinton subway from the airport to Kennedy and a subway to SCC to replace the SRT.... what will be on Don Mills and Sheppard then? This debate is like the choice to either give two people $40k and two $0, or to give four people $20k. Perhaps it is hard to live with $20k but it sure beats trying to live with $0!
I would much prefer to build a core subway network than build LRT that may reach farther initially, but won't create as solid a network as those subways would. Something as simple as Sheppard to Agincourt, DRL from Spadina to Eglinton, and Eglinton from Jane to Don Mills.

People are already living with $0, yet many still take busses to the subway, or just drive to subway or Go stations. By extending the network, you bring a huge number of people to that sweet $40k where a huge number will actually be taking the subway. I think many of you are overestimating the draws of LRT. The reason that LRT works so well in Europe is that LRT leads straight into a subway network that can take you basically anywhere in the city you want to go. So LRT really has a slight draw over busses, and the main point of it is to give extra speed and capacity.
 
I am talking solely about the conversion of the current SRT, and not any extensions. But let's play the cost-neutral game. For 1.2 Billion,you are extending the S(L)RT to Malvern, and will serve Centennial College, essentially allowing riders the option of not having to transfer at STC. What are you getting with the subway? Still the same annoying transfer at STC to slow buses. I fail to see the benefit at this point in time.

Again, where's your numbers coming from? It's at least 452 million to convert to ART Mk II and a fair bit more to convert to LRTs. That's not even the extension. That' just conversion.

And I am from Malvern. I can vouch for the fact that there's too little ridership spread out over too many routes to effectively pack that extension. The 134 Progress bus (which I took for years) already gets you to Centennial in minutes. And it's reliable and has good frequency. If Centennial is the concern then simply add a few more buses on the 134.

What I disagree with is the concept. The underbuilt the STC-Kennedy link which should have been a subway. And overbuilt the Malvern-STC link which could have been BRT or at-grade Transit City style LRT (yes, I actually see a role for LRT). Instead they are going to mess up both. By their own numbers, STC-Kennedy will be decently close to capacity on opening day. So we stand the risk of this thing maxing out in the lifetime of this line, giving us overcrowding yet again in a few years. But, by deploying grade separation on the Malvern-STC link they were forced to cut out stops at Markham (one of the busiest routes in Scarborough) and Milner (a huge employment node/corridor for Malvern and eastern Scarborough). Great for Centennial college students, sucks for everybody else.

By the way, have a look at a map and see how many bus routes intersect the proposed line. Cutting it short at Sheppard means the Milner, Nugget and Neilson buses (which carry the bulk of Malvern riders to STC) will all bypass the line and keep going to STC. And of course, it won't be picking up passengers from Markham, unless the planners expect transferees to walk 400m uphill to transfer (just drive out there and have a look at the intersection of Markham/Progress). Their calculations on demand from Malvern fail to take into account the SELRT, the SMLRT and possible start-up of GO service which will have a station across the street from Malvern Town Centre. So that LRT will be fairly empty coming from Malvern and get rammed at STC....in part with Malvern riders who rode right past the thing.

This is why they would have been better off extending the subway. It's not always about how many kms of you build. That kind of infantile measuring contest is only worth so much when it comes to transit. They could have extended the subway and gotten rid of one extra transfer for all eastern Scarborough riders. Down the road, if demand warranted an at-grade LRT on Progress from STC to Malvern would have sufficed. It would have been cheaper to do and had more stops, allowing for service at Markham and at Milner.

And finally how is transferring to a bus any less annoying then transferring to a LRT? Transfers of any sort are an inconvience. Calling buses slow and annoying is just your bias. Give a bus its own lane like they do for LRTs and you can get buses going as fast or faster than LRTs. Better yet, buses can get on and off the ROW. Don't believe me? Go to Ottawa and watch them move a city of 800 000 (more than the population of Scarborough) almost exclusively using buses (the near useless O-Train being the exception). And amazingly nobody in Ottawa complains about how slow and annoying the buses are. The only reason they are building LRT now has to do with capacity. Or maybe you should tell people in Curitiba about how slow and annoying buses are. Do you find them slow and annoying on York-Downsview BRT (which according to the TTC runs faster than the subway)? If you are going to make such comparisons, do them on an equal footing. Let's talk about buses in their own ROWs. Beyond STC and really east of McCowan, there isn't a single route which has demand that can't be taken care of with buses using bus lanes. LRT just isn't a necessity. It's not like the Home Depot on Morningside and Sheppard is going to generate 10 000 riders a day.

The LRT is going to be mostly grade-separated, and larger vehicles. Capacity will be doubled. Tell me why a technology derided by so many citizens is preferable? The last time I rode the SRT, I remember I could barely hear my Ipod due to the noise. Has that issue been addressed yet?

Ever seen the Mk II version of the ART? Now, coming from Scarborough, I am no fan of the current ART Mk I. But if the line was going to be grade separated the whole way there's absolutely no need to use heavier and more expensive vehicles. And basing opinions on the current ART Mk I is like suggesting we shouldn't buy any more streetcars because the current ones give us trouble. I am sure if you ask most riders on Queen or King today if they would prefer to ditch the streetcar and get a new TTC bus, they'd say yes. Does that make them right?

They could have converted to ART Mk IIs for less money and in a shorter timeframe. Or do you think axing transit service for two years from a node that has near subway levels of demand (by the TTC's own admission) is a good idea? And don't forget, they are planning on ripping up Sheppard at the same time as well. Don't be too surprised if lots of Malvernites re-discover the joys of driving again.
 
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I would much prefer to build a core subway network than build LRT that may reach farther initially, but won't create as solid a network as those subways would. Something as simple as Sheppard to Agincourt, DRL from Spadina to Eglinton, and Eglinton from Jane to Don Mills.

People are already living with $0, yet many still take busses to the subway, or just drive to subway or Go stations. By extending the network, you bring a huge number of people to that sweet $40k where a huge number will actually be taking the subway. I think many of you are overestimating the draws of LRT. The reason that LRT works so well in Europe is that LRT leads straight into a subway network that can take you basically anywhere in the city you want to go. So LRT really has a slight draw over busses, and the main point of it is to give extra speed and capacity.

Which I'm thinking, that North American city planners think cheap about public transportation. LRT will never be equivalent to HRT, regardless of its potential! :mad::mad::mad:
 
Which I'm thinking, that North American city planners think cheap about public transportation. LRT will never be equivalent to HRT, regardless of its potential! :mad::mad::mad:

North American Planners

Think politics
Think Short-term
Transit is spending


Europeens:

General consensus...No political games
Think Long term
Transit is an investment


Who has the best transit network?
 
The current administration. All they had on the books was TC....and some preliminary discussion for Yonge North. They didn't evne put any serious brainstorming into the DRL.

Again, if we're wrong, since you seem to be a strong TC proponent, just share with us what subway expansion should occur in this city, in your opinion. I see a lot of you saying you do support subway expansion. Nobody is sharing specifics. Could it be because you don't really support subway expansion beyond token words saying you do?

The current administration pushed for a study on the DRL last year. (I believe it's since been delayed due to budget cutbacks at the TTC, but what hasn't?)

I support the downtown relief line across the city. I'd trade all of Transit City for it in an instant. Except in this reality that would undoubtedly lead to another decade-long planning process until everything is killed by a provincial budget cut.

As far as other subway extensions go, I think what they're doing with Sheppard is more than a little ridiculous. It's destined to be one of those weird quirks of transit that confuses the hell out of out-of-towners. If it were me in charge, I'd probably have a Sheppard extension on the books as a long-term (20-year) project. But we're going forward as-is and I don't think the current plan will HURT the corridor at all. It'll just be odd.

Eglinton will probably work well as is proposed. I'd support an eventual Bloor extension in the West though Mississauga would need to get on board and tell us what they want and how they're paying for it. In the East, I think a Scarborough LRT network is shaping up nicely and could be quite advantageous.
 
^ Believe it or not, we are closer in opinions than you'd imagine.

I personally would trade all of TC for the DRL and I do believe if we had done that, Metrolinx would have gone for it. Far easier to push one line than 6 or more. Even Eglinton I agree with you.

But Sheppard is where I disagree. I do think what they are doing does harm the corridor. The original intention of the Sheppard subway was to have a direct connection between NYCC and SCC. It was not to have a connection between Malvern and NYCC. They aren't even committing to a McCowan spur to STC. They could have had a reasonable plan that allowed for expansion (by say extending the subway till Agincourt and doing LRT the rest of the way). Instead they are building something which betrays the original vision and goal for that corridor and purposefully putting in place something that will be very difficult to remedy or modfiy later. Part of me suspect they didn't want any other alternative because the wanted to kill off subway expansion in the 416 and they knew that if Sheppard was extended to Agincourt, it'd be very difficult to drum up enough ridership to justify LRT eastwards from there. Ever notice how the TTC does not break down ridership by any midpoint, like they do on their SRT refurb/extension proposals?

And of course there's the SRT. As currently proposed it's just bad planning. And here's one place where Transit City style at-grade LRT would have been great (for the STC-Malvern link).

There's elements of Transit City, I do support. But the fact that they prioritized all of it ahead of the DRL, or that they completely ruled out short and reasonable subway expansions (STC-Kennedy) is what I find bothersome.
 
^ Believe it or not, we are closer in opinions than you'd imagine.

I personally would trade all of TC for the DRL and I do believe if we had done that, Metrolinx would have gone for it. Far easier to push one line than 6 or more. Even Eglinton I agree with you.

But Sheppard is where I disagree. I do think what they are doing does harm the corridor. The original intention of the Sheppard subway was to have a direct connection between NYCC and SCC. It was not to have a connection between Malvern and NYCC. They aren't even committing to a McCowan spur to STC. They could have had a reasonable plan that allowed for expansion (by say extending the subway till Agincourt and doing LRT the rest of the way). Instead they are building something which betrays the original vision and goal for that corridor and purposefully putting in place something that will be very difficult to remedy or modfiy later. Part of me suspect they didn't want any other alternative because the wanted to kill off subway expansion in the 416 and they knew that if Sheppard was extended to Agincourt, it'd be very difficult to drum up enough ridership to justify LRT eastwards from there. Ever notice how the TTC does not break down ridership by any midpoint, like they do on their SRT refurb/extension proposals?

And of course there's the SRT. As currently proposed it's just bad planning. And here's one place where Transit City style at-grade LRT would have been great (for the STC-Malvern link).

There's elements of Transit City, I do support. But the fact that they prioritized all of it ahead of the DRL, or that they completely ruled out short and reasonable subway expansions (STC-Kennedy) is what I find bothersome.


The ideal scenario would have been:

1-Downsview to STC via Agincourt

2-SELRT from Agincourt, south on Morningside (Merging the line with Malvern LRT to Kennedy)
 
Toronto makes an amazingly small use of it's rail ROW. The only use they have for them right now is for GO service which is mostly for 905ers. As I said I strongly believe that a giant "U" is the best idea for Toronto for serving under served areas, will be fast, realively cheap, offer DRL under Queen and have a TRUE rapid/mass transit system from Malvern to DRL back up to Humber. Toronto has got to start thinking about elevation and atgrade transit usuage for it's rail ROW. If you look at most mass transit iniatives in the world they are almost always elevated/at grade rail corridors NOT underground. Toronto has useful rail ROWs that most cities would give their left nut for but uses none of them.
 

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