[scarberiankhatru]

If memory serves me correctly, wasn't an RT extension along Eglinton a regular AreBe proposal? If so, maybe I should list this as "pointz"...

It's funny that Steve Munro is bitching about Metrolinx...he helped convince Miller and friends to abandon all of our existing transit plans and now he's upset that some people aren't subscribing to the "all streetcars, all the time" network? Aww, poor baby.

Of course Soberman would suggest an RT extension...Soberman suggesting something other than building/keeping/renovating/extending the RT would be like Steve Munro not recommending streetcars.

As much I think the RT along Eglinton is a fundamentally silly idea (for reasons including: it would kill the needed Danforth extension to STC; an Eglinton line is best off running east of Kennedy, too; that existing subway technology works fine and need not be as gold-plated and overbuilt as the Spadina extension will be; the potential future ridership on Eglinton clearly warrants a full-blown subway), I must admit that at least it could be a real rapid transit line capable of fulfilling short-term (short-sighted?) goals.

I must point out that an Eglinton subway is not currently as undeniably 'needed' as everyone makes it out to be and the peak hour ridership projections really are unknown (but with huge potential). Eglinton's existing and potential ridership base could be greatly cannibalized by other routes and the mythical "Scarborough to Mississauga" riders can take the existing B/D subway, that connects with Eglinton at one end and is only 4km away at the other. A large percentage of the Eglinton corridor's buses and riders are forced onto Eglinton due to geography (like Lawrence East, which could be intercepted by the DRL) or because that's where the subway ends (all the routes funneling into Kennedy). Ultimately, although a subway on the full length of Eglinton could and probably would be a key part of Toronto's rapid transit network, I don't see it as a top priority, more of a major part of the future fantasy network (one that we can and should eventually build...fantasy can become reality). The central portion of Eglinton needs immediate help, though, which is a nightmare as musters says.

Long story short, if we're already going to spend at least $3B on a tunneled streetcar, we owe it to Toronto's future to halt that plan and seriously consider a real subway line, even though it means spending money now to build for the future. There's a half dozen subway projects I'd rather see built first, but I would not oppose an Eglinton subway on grounds of sequential priority (similar to why I don't oppose the Spadina line going up to #7). A phased project would be ideal, as long as outer stretches are not built with streetcars in the interim...subway from Don Mills to Jane in phase I sounds good. Or from western DRL branch to eastern DRL branch

Clearly, though, the DRL is needed and would be absolutely necessary if an Eglinton subway is built, or probably even if an Eglinton RT is built (and, yes, Rainforest, if there's any money at all to pay for any of these projects, there's money for the DRL).

RR191: An Eglinton subway would hopelessly overcrowd the entire YUS line...there will be no room on Spadina trains at Eglinton West once the line is extended north of Downsview.

 

[RedRocket191]

RR191: An Eglinton subway would hopelessly overcrowd the entire YUS line...there will be no room on Spadina trains at Eglinton West once the line is extended north of Downsview.

Riders heading into the central business district could transfer onto railway corridor services at Kennedy or Wynford in the east and Caledonia or Mount Dennis in the West, for example. This would help mitigate the crowding that would occur. Don't forget we're building a network, not just one line.

 

[waterloowarrior]

Eglinton west of the DVP is a nightmare, crippling this city.

If we forget about funding costs...
Anything less than a subway on Eglinton is a shame and will definitely be a short-sighted mistake to future generations. I agree it can be easily compared to the Bloor Line when it was added, if the Bloor Line was scaled back or used a streetcar approach, could you imagine how bad that area would be today?

Besides, why bother building a dedicated Rail Link to Union when you can just run the Eglinton subway to the airport? Use that money for an Eglinton subway!

Interestingly enough, the Bloor street streetcar had a ridership of 9,000 at peak hour before the subway there was built (although there were also other parallel streetcars nearby)

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=142

 

[Dan416]

Now let's think logically:

Originally the TTC was building a subway on Eglinton. It even got started. Then it was cancelled by Harris.

Over the years traffic in this city has grown considerably. Population in the GTA has exploded. Streets are full at all times. Gas prices are high and people are looking for alternatives. Transit is finally being considered the green alternative.

And in spite of all that, the TTC now says there won't be enough ridership on Eglinton to justify a subway? How is that logical? At all???? They've officially backtracked on their position even though more and more people are taking public transit? What what?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Riders heading into the central business district could transfer onto railway corridor services at Kennedy or Wynford in the east and Caledonia or Mount Dennis in the West, for example. This would help mitigate the crowding that would occur. Don't forget we're building a network, not just one line.

Just make sure a DRL continuing up Don Mills (and perhaps up somewhere in the west) gets included in the grand plan...it'd be sooo much easier doing that than planning for precise levels of acceptable overcrowding coupled with assumptions that riders beyond this can all be shifted over to GO lines.

 

[urbanboom]

Now let's think logically:

Originally the TTC was building a subway on Eglinton. It even got started. Then it was cancelled by Harris.

Over the years traffic in this city has grown considerably. Population in the GTA has exploded. Streets are full at all times. Gas prices are high and people are looking for alternatives. Transit is finally being considered the green alternative.

And in spite of all that, the TTC now says there won't be enough ridership on Eglinton to justify a subway? How is that logical? At all???? They've officially backtracked on their position even though more and more people are taking public transit? What what?

I personally believe that the TTC is afraid of getting the same sort of backlash that they did when they opened the Sheppard Subway. God forbid they make a subway for the future rather then the last minute scramble they usually do.

 

[RedRocket191]

Just make sure a DRL continuing up Don Mills (and perhaps up somewhere in the west) gets included in the grand plan...it'd be sooo much easier doing that than planning for precise levels of acceptable overcrowding coupled with assumptions that riders beyond this can all be shifted over to GO lines.

I'm not going to venture a guess on what we'll see on Don Mills, Jane or Queen Street, but there is strong support for subway-style service on the GO Transit lines. The lines will deal with much of the rationale for building the DRL, but it would not follow the routing of the proposed DRL exactly (but it would come very close). A unified fare system would help encourage riders to make that shift.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

But "downtown relief" is only one of the DRL's features...it's like calling the Eglinton line the "Scarborough-Mississauga connector." GO lines can't do everything...

 

[kettal]

Now let's think logically:

Originally the TTC was building a subway on Eglinton. It even got started. Then it was cancelled by Harris.

Over the years traffic in this city has grown considerably. Population in the GTA has exploded. Streets are full at all times. Gas prices are high and people are looking for alternatives. Transit is finally being considered the green alternative.

And in spite of all that, the TTC now says there won't be enough ridership on Eglinton to justify a subway? How is that logical? At all???? They've officially backtracked on their position even though more and more people are taking public transit? What what?

Just because it was proposed in the past doesn't make it the best option. Sheppard Subway was proposed too, and now it is an under utilized money pit. Spadina subway was built and extended for the past 30 years, and it still is under LRT capacity.

 

[Whoaccio]

I don't fully understand this obsession with Mississauga-Scarborough accessibility to begin with. The bulk of people on the Eglinton buses have no interest in traversing the city from end to end, they are just trying to get to the subway. I don't understand why we need be so concerned about extending a hypothetical subway as far as conceivable just to post a time for Miss.-Scar. trips that very few people are interested in. I mean, if you live in Scarborough, how likely is it you live withing 500m of Eglinton ? In addition, how likely is it you work within 500m of Eglinton in Miss.? Taken together, the two variables would suggest rather low ridership.

Thats not to say I don't support a grade separated line along Eg, I just think we are putting the cart in front of the horse in basing our decision on what can get a traveler from Scarborough to Miss the fastest. I suppose here is where I propose an alternative that nobody will seriously listen to, and damn strait I will! We build a Circle Line. Roughly:

- Eglinton between Jane st. & Don Mills Road
- Southbound @ Don Mills
- Essentially follow the DRL to rail corridor @ Queen & Dufferin
- Back up to Jane & Eglinton

 

[borgo100]

this city sure is stupid at times, putting LRT on Eglinton is just going to be like a band aid, a subway is a cure

 

[Dan416]

Just because it was proposed in the past doesn't make it the best option. Sheppard Subway was proposed too, and now it is an under utilized money pit. Spadina subway was built and extended for the past 30 years, and it still is under LRT capacity.

As Scarberian will tell you, the reason the Sheppard subway is always derided is because it was never finished; it's a stubway. If it connected North York Centre with Scarborough Centre it would be a much, much more valuable route. Why do you think all the development is taking place along Sheppard?

As for Spadina, just look at how it was built and you'll see why it's been a failure. And yet people want to put ROWs on the 401, 403, 407 and hydro corridors and expect a different result?

 

[urbanboom]

I support the Spadina extension.

One of the reasons floating around do this thing was to, in a way, balance the scale; make the Spadina line as used as the Yonge line. But would that really happen if we went to Vaughan? How many would go across 22 stations to get from Vaughan to Union?

 

[ShonTron]

I don't fully understand this obsession with Mississauga-Scarborough accessibility to begin with. The bulk of people on the Eglinton buses have no interest in traversing the city from end to end, they are just trying to get to the subway.

I'm not sure if you getting the whole point - not many here are saying we need a subway from Mississauga to Scarborough per se, they are advocating a rapid transit line that will complement the Bloor-Danforth subway.

Underground LRT won't be a bad choice, as where the most congestion and intersections are, it will be underground, with stop spacing dictated partly by the cost of these underground stations. The line will also probably be signaled, it will be the closest thing yet to real, modern LRT Toronto will see.

But I am intrigued by Soberman's ICTS/mini-metro proposal, which can easily be elevated (done in Scarborough, Vancouver and Detroit, and elsewhere), tunneled like LRT, and automated and quickly built and has pretty good capacity potential. I didn't like how Soberman got Scarborough just a tuned-up version of the RT it already has (where a B-D extension makes a lot of sense), but now I see the method to his madness, doesn't mean I agree, it just puts a new angle on things.

 

[Panzerfaust]

One of the reasons floating around do this thing was to, in a way, balance the scale; make the Spadina line as used as the Yonge line. But would that really happen if we went to Vaughan? How many would go across 22 stations to get from Vaughan to Union?

The same type of people who would take a bus from York Region to Finch Station and then the subway downtown every day. The massive bus congestion on Yonge north of Finch shows that a lot of such people exist. Even though GO is faster, the higher fare and less flexibility than local transit keeps a lot of people away.

For the record, I oppose the Spadina extension north of Steeles. I'm just saying that plenty of people are willing to put up with longer travel times if it means a cheaper and more flexible ride.

Oh, and RE: ICTS on Eglinton? VERY OPPOSED. We would have to tunnel the whole thing in order to avoid huge operational problems inherent to ICTS and the SRT ("Shit guys, one centimetre of snow! Looks like shuttle buses on Eglinton again!") and at that point the costs would be so high we may as well build a subway. I'd prefer a subway provided the government threw in the money for it.