[W. K. Lis]

This bugs me. It's already an arterial, why are they opposing bus lanes? I would understand if it was a local street. It's in cases like this I wish the City would just say "Objection noted. We're doing it anyway. STFU."

Same reason why some objected to a LRT on Finch West, even though the existing lanes would not have been reduced in number. More likely, I think, it would be that drivers would get into the bus lane a kilometre or two from their next right turn and just create more traffic.

 

[gweed123]

More likely, I think, it would be that drivers would get into the bus lane a kilometre or two from their next right turn and just create more traffic.

That's what cops are for...

 

[Justin10000]

That's what cops are for...

It's unlikely cops are going to spend time ticketing drivers for using the bus lanes. The arterial HOV lanes are not enforced.

 

[gweed123]

It's unlikely cops are going to spend time ticketing drivers for using the bus lanes. The arterial HOV lanes are not enforced.

I would think for them it would be a cash cow, especially in the first few days. You patrol agressively for the first week or so, and then people will get the message.

I always find I'm debunking this theory that "the lanes will not be enforced, everyone will drive in them, and thus they will be ineffective". I drive Woodroffe in Ottawa all the time. I never see people driving in the bus-only lanes. You blitz the first week, and then after that people won't do it. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've actually seen someone driving in those lanes.

Put simply, "people will drive in the lanes" is a BS excuse for not wanting to build bus-only lanes.

 

[kEiThZ]

I would think for them it would be a cash cow, especially in the first few days. You patrol agressively for the first week or so, and then people will get the message.

I always find I'm debunking this theory that "the lanes will not be enforced, everyone will drive in them, and thus they will be ineffective". I drive Woodroffe in Ottawa all the time. I never see people driving in the bus-only lanes. You blitz the first week, and then after that people won't do it. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've actually seen someone driving in those lanes.

Put simply, "people will drive in the lanes" is a BS excuse for not wanting to build bus-only lanes.

+1

I really don't get it either. Not just Ottawa. So many other cities I've been to have bus lanes. Nobody drives in them. Saying people will just drive in them is admitting that Toronto's citizens are apt to flout the laws of the road or admitting that there will be no penalty for those that do. People who say it can't be done should see how well the bus lanes are enforced in downtown Ottawa where serious roadspace is taken from cars. Even where there is traffic, nobody piles onto the bus lanes. Closer to home, just look at the HOV lanes on the highway. How many people risk breaking the rules and using those when they don't have enough passengers?

 

[DavidH]

It's unlikely cops are going to spend time ticketing drivers for using the bus lanes. The arterial HOV lanes are not enforced.

We have people whose job it is to drive around all day and enforce parking restrictions. Surely we can have people whose job it is to drive around all day and enforce lane restrictions?

I agree that the "regular" cops don't have the time to handle this, but it's not an unsolveable problem.

 

[Justin10000]

We have people whose job it is to drive around all day and enforce parking restrictions. Surely we can have people whose job it is to drive around all day and enforce lane restrictions?

I agree that the "regular" cops don't have the time to handle this, but it's not an unsolveable problem.

I am sure the city could hire people to enforce the lane restrictions, and I think the city should. At the moment, the city does not enforce the lane restrictions, and drivers take full advantage. The problem is definitely solveable, and it would be nice if the city solved it.

But it's definitely not a job for cops.

 

[nfitz]

It's unlikely cops are going to spend time ticketing drivers for using the bus lanes. The arterial HOV lanes are not enforced.

I've regularly seen police enforcing the HOV lanes on Don Mills Road.

 

[Eug]

I've regularly seen police enforcing the HOV lanes on Don Mills Road.

Same with Eglinton. It's easy money for the city, so there is incentive to enforcing it. ie. They actually make money by enforcing the HOV lane restrictions, and it seems to be less effort to enforce this than to use those laser guns to enforce speed limits.

Speaking of which... I've learned to drive at 69 in the 60 zone on these intra-city arterial routes, or at most 74. At 80, you're gonna get ticketed for sure if there are police around, and at 75 you might. At 70 you probably won't, but in rare cases (slow day?) they will ticket you.

 

[Northern Magus]

I'll speak in favour of bus lanes. They can and do work, though the devil is always in the details.

When I lived in London and took the tube and buses on a daily basis, I never once saw cars driving in the bus lanes for the simple reason that they were well implemented: the lanes are paved and painted a different colour, comme ca

http://www.freefoto.com/images/2030/14/2030_14_26---Bus-Lane_web.jpg?&k=Bus+Lane

Unless we did something similar here, I doubt there'd be that much compliance. Bluntly put, the road hog population would loathe the damn things and jump into them whenever there wasn't a cop in sight.

And ... if they were lanes lanes that were actually taken away from cars, without any corresponding road widening, good luck. In any car-centric area, the NIMBYs would go absolutely apeshit and stop them from being implemented in the first place. Not to mention the fact that the Ford Brothers would likely make it a personal cause and intervene.

So maybe under a different administration.....

Same with Eglinton. It's easy money for the city, so there is incentive to enforcing it.

Works nice in theory, but any smart opposing politician would probably ask the following, repeatedly and loud: where are the cops going to come from? From which apparently big surplus pool of officers will they be drawn out of? Will they be pulled off of regular beats? For how long? How much crime will occur because they're not out doing their regular duties? Will limited city resources be allocated towards hiring hiring traffic cops whose sole purpose is to perpetuate a money-grab? Will the anti-car brigade's ticketing be incentivized through commissions? And doesn't everyone know that the first few weeks will always be the most policed, after which any borrowed cops will go back to their regular work and enforcement will be far more sporadic?

Which is a long-ish way of saying that I think compliance will ultimately have to be voluntary, among a population who are supportive.

 

[gweed123]

Like I said, you do a policing blitz in the first week, get media attention of it, and then people will get the message. It's not going to cost a fortune to have a couple cops sit there and pick people off. And in fact, if the law-breaking would be as rampid as people claim, the fines would more than pay for the police officer's time. Heck, even a couple of $150 fines, and you've paid for that cop's entire shift!

I honestly think people are overreacting to this. It works in countless other cities around the world, and even in North America. Toronto drivers aren't that different from drivers in Ottawa (aside from Toronto drivers being less able to drive in snow). There are many grounds to oppose bus only lanes on, but people breaking the law and driving in them isn't really one of them. Do HOV lanes on the 403 and QEW get clogged up every day with single occupant vehicles driving in them, to the point where the speed of the lane is compromised? Hell no. Why would bus lanes be any different?

 

[Northern Magus]

It's not going to cost a fortune to have a couple cops sit there and pick people off. And in fact, if the law-breaking would be as rampid as people claim, the fines would more than pay for the police officer's time.

Actually I think this would be the worst possible way to attempt enforcement. No one ever speeds when they know the cops are watching, and they speed right up when the cops are out of sight, right? Same principle here.

There would need to be patrols and traps. Which is where I'd argue the problems would begin.

Why would bus lanes be any different?

Ultimately I think it would entirely depend on how they were implemented, and who brings them in. If there's widespread acceptence, they'll work. Otherwise they'll become a symbol in "the war on the car".

And I don't think it's a case of people overreacting here: it's legitimately a contentious issue.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I'll speak in favour of bus lanes. They can and do work, though the devil is always in the details.

When I lived in London and took the tube and buses on a daily basis, I never once saw cars driving in the bus lanes for the simple reason that they were well implemented: the lanes are paved and painted a different colour, comme ca

http://www.freefoto.com/images/2030/14/2030_14_26---Bus-Lane_web.jpg?&k=Bus+Lane

Unless we did something similar here, I doubt there'd be that much compliance. Bluntly put, the road hog population would loathe the damn things and jump into them whenever there wasn't a cop in sight.

And ... if they were lanes lanes that were actually taken away from cars, without any corresponding road widening, good luck. In any car-centric area, the NIMBYs would go absolutely apeshit and stop them from being implemented in the first place. Not to mention the fact that the Ford Brothers would likely make it a personal cause and intervene.

So maybe under a different administration.....



Works nice in theory, but any smart opposing politician would probably ask the following, repeatedly and loud: where are the cops going to come from? From which apparently big surplus pool of officers will they be drawn out of? Will they be pulled off of regular beats? For how long? How much crime will occur because they're not out doing their regular duties? Will limited city resources be allocated towards hiring hiring traffic cops whose sole purpose is to perpetuate a money-grab? Will the anti-car brigade's ticketing be incentivized through commissions? And doesn't everyone know that the first few weeks will always be the most policed, after which any borrowed cops will go back to their regular work and enforcement will be far more sporadic?

Which is a long-ish way of saying that I think compliance will ultimately have to be voluntary, among a population who are supportive.

If one has to build specially segregated bus lanes, which have to be wide, why not build them as segregated light rail which would be narrower than most bus lanes.

 

[Northern Magus]

If one has to build specially segregated bus lanes, which have to be wide, why not build them as segregated light rail which would be narrower than most bus lanes.

LRT is fine by me: lower operating, maintenance, and staff costs, greater longevity, not to mention far lower carbon emissions. But unfortunately that particular plan has been scrapped by the Mayor's office and Metrolinx.

 

[gweed123]

If one has to build specially segregated bus lanes, which have to be wide, why not build them as segregated light rail which would be narrower than most bus lanes.

Oh jeez, where do I start:

1) Because they cost about half as much to build.

2) They don't have to be built all at once. Many of the bus routes in Ottawa use a combination of dedicated ROW, dedicated lanes, and mixed traffic. This sort of thing cannot happen very easily with LRT. In the case of Finch or Sheppard, they can start by building bus lanes along 'problem stretches', which may only be a couple blocks or around a couple intersections. You can expand to more sections as demand (and money) warrants. With an LRT, it's all or nothing. $30 million worth of investment in BRT can get you a number of intersections or a couple of KM of curbside lanes. What would $30 million worth of LRT get you, 500m of track? Useless for LRT, but can make a huge difference in the efficiency of an existing bus route.

3) Multiple routes running either parallel or shared using the ROW. Interlining with LRT can be a mess. With bus lanes it's quite easy. You can even have express routes running along the same corridor, something that is nearly impossible with LRT without 4 tracking large sections of the ROW. The curbside lane section along Woodroffe has literally 10+ routes running along the corridor. Transitway buses, local buses, express buses, peak period buses. That sort of thing could NEVER happen with LRT.