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- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
kEiThZ
Superstar
Anyone have any thoughts on how far collection would work on these new light rail routes? If we are getting something more than a plain streetcar, than we should have multi-door boarding which means we have to move to POP. I havent seen any TTC musings on this.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
It will most likely be a POP using a SmartCard. The driver will be enclosed in a cab, so will not be collecting the fare or issuing transfers. That's also why tickets were not replaced with new designs, because of the counterfeiting problem earlier in the year. It's the first step towards the SmartCard, replacing tickets with tokens.
That video in the previous post shows how a manual ticket is punched to prove one paid, was used in some European cities. Similar to how tickets on the GO trains are used.
kEiThZ
Superstar
POP is great. I love that here in Ottawa. Speeds up boarding. And it really, really encourages people to actually buy passes. Most riders I see in Ottawa actually have a pass.
Filip
Senior Member
Indeed, I like how the Ottawa bus network functions. I'm actually excited to go back in September!
ShonTron
Moderator
Ugh. I can't stand Ottawa's bus network. Winding, over-complex routes (with no route names and such meaningful destination descriptions as "local"), bunching, short-turns, the only thing it's good for is transporting bureaucrats with heavily subsidized Ecopasses on the highly inefficient green express routes, which is the only thing people seem to like about the system.
Try getting a bus out of the train station in the afternoon and see what I mean. Though it's not too bad to get to and from the airport.
Try getting a bus out of the train station in the afternoon and see what I mean. Though it's not too bad to get to and from the airport.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Hehe...I happened one of the those "bureaucrats with a heavily subsidized Ecopass".
I think the ecopass system works and here's why. Using myself as an example. Because of the ecopass, I chose to live in a condo seven stops from where I work. And I chose to pay the extra 20 odd bucks a month for an express pass just so I can have access to near instantaneous bus service during rush hour. Tons of young "bureaucrats" I know have the exact same idea. What's more because of the pass I am likely to use the bus to go downtown on weekends instead of taking my car....which might be cheaper than paying full fare given where i live. Given that Ottawa is an overgrown town, its incredibly challenging to encourage transit use and promote densification. The Ecopass, express buses, the use of POP help make transit easy and accessible to use, and is promoting a growing culture of transit.
While the model might not be apt for Toronto. There's a few ideas that should be considered. BRT is cheap and appropriate for Toronto in many areas and can be built incrementally. Holding out for a subway won't get anyone very far, given the nature of provincial and federal support for transit. POP makes transit easy to use and increases boarding times. Another idea, Toronto seems to miss out on. Lastly, while TO offers discounted metropasses to university students, here in Ottawa, they make it cheap enough that virtually every student gets a semester or yearly pass. And they use it all the time. Bus loads virtually double in my area during the school year. These are people who will go on to use transit for the rest of their lives. It's a smart strategic investment. TTC should certainly consider an idea like the semester pass for students. Or go the way of Halifax where transit charges are included in the fees and all students ride the bus for "free" all year long.
ps. You've had challenges getting a bus out of the train station in the afternoon? There's a 94 or 95 or 100-series bus like every 5 mins (occassional 10 min stretches).
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Being a regular rider in a city with POP right now, I definitely think the TTC should look at going that route in the future. The cost savings in terms of eliminating collectors and saving on boarding time should easily match the cost of slightly increased fare evasion. Make the fine $100 and have frequent patrols, and I'm sure it would be a huge net cost savings. No complicated fare gates or other equipment, either.
nfitz
Superstar
Perhaps TTC should trial POP on a busy route. Queen street maybe? 
ShonTron
Moderator
Not knocking bureaucrats with ecopasses using green express routes, I have an aunt who works at one of the embassies (sorry, to correct myself, I meant High Commission) in Ottawa, and loves walking outside of her Kanata house and stepping on a bus that gets her a quiet, one-seat ride to work everyday. Who wouldn't love that? But the green routes are a terrible use of resources, and it seems to hurt the rest of the system.
Routes 95, 96, 97 seem to suffer with the congestion on the Transitway caused by all the one or two trip wonders in the peak. Albert and Slater are just absolutely chaotic. I will tell you about my attempts to get from the Ottawa VIA station west in the afternoon.
The first time, I was headed to Carleton. No big deal, I thought, it would be an easy transfer to Bayview and the O-Train. I waited about 10 minutes for a 95 bus to come, but I saw, I kid you not, 20 deadheads go by, I assume to stage for the start of all those express routes. After 10 minutes, a 95 came by, but did not stop, being packed solid. I waited, saw 8 more deadheads, then another 95 went by, without stopping for me. But one did stop a minute later and let me on. But the driver kicked everyone out at the next stop, Hurdman, and started all over again. It took me almost an hour to get to Bayview.
The second time, I was just heading to Bay Station downtown, I thought I'd be luckier, the last time was a bad fluke. Nope. It was almost as bad, and saw all these half-empty 30 and 40 series routes heading to Orleans the other direction.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Perhaps TTC should trial POP on a busy route. Queen street maybe?
The TTC should realize that the trial has been working successfully for the past decade and expand it.
khris
Senior Member
I thought that Queen already has POP?
Le Gique
Active Member
try enforcing POP in crush load conditions
-as smart and inevitable as POP is, keep in mind that some people go absolutely gorilla-poo over the idea of fare evasion
-the whole topic can be very irritating to some, and i wonder if this doesn't have a role in failing to expand POP beyond Queen
-as far as i recall, the 501 was selected for POP cuz it does not enter a paid-fare zone at subway stations
(of course, neither does the Scarlett bus... or Jane ...)
-ed
-as smart and inevitable as POP is, keep in mind that some people go absolutely gorilla-poo over the idea of fare evasion
-the whole topic can be very irritating to some, and i wonder if this doesn't have a role in failing to expand POP beyond Queen
-as far as i recall, the 501 was selected for POP cuz it does not enter a paid-fare zone at subway stations
(of course, neither does the Scarlett bus... or Jane ...)
-ed
kEiThZ
Superstar
Agreed. But set the fine high enough, and have enough enforcement officers (who will pay for themselves through fines), and the masses will quickly fall in line and learn to love their new POP overlord.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The reason for POP on the 501 Queen was that with ALRV and their 3 sets of doors, riders with passes and transfers would use the center and rear doors, and therefore speed the boarding of the cars. The front doors were to pay a fare and collect a transfer. I do use the rear doors with my pass, but I continue to see people to use the front doors to enter and exit.
The TTC constables would occasionally check for transfers or passes. At one time, I got off at Victoria (St. Micheal's Hospital) and a constable asked to see my pass just as I was about to enter the hospital (I did have a pass).