ShonTron
Moderator
We had 100% low floor buses. Look how those turned out.
The 100% low floor tram requirement is just stupid.
The 100% low floor tram requirement is just stupid.
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- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Prometheus The Supremo
►Member №41+⅜◄
what happened with the buses?
how much of the LRT is low floor? how many wheelchairs can you fit?
Voltz
Senior Member
The buses where built like crap and had a pour interior layout, they where retired early. I believe the buses also had the misfortune of being powered by Natural Gas.
They want 100% low floor for the new LRV's, but they have yet to find such a model that will work on the TTC's tracks.
If they don't get a full low floor model then it would just be a 70% low floor model. All the doors would still have step less entry (from a platform) and the vehicle would still be wheelchair accessible, don't know how many wheelchair positions.
Prometheus The Supremo
►Member №41+⅜◄
100% low floor model won't work on TTC tracks but a 70% will? which part of the LRV would be the remaining 30% high floor? and what operational problem would it cause? i'm guessing bottoming out on change of topography?
this issue would only be with the mixed traffic existing streetcar network right? would it be an issue with transit city LRT? will both systems use the same model?
RedRocket191
Senior Member
70% low floor trams have a layout like this:
---____---____---
The doors are located in the low areas, and traditional-style trucks are mounted in the high areas. Since these traditional trucks can handle the current network, it's argued that a 70% low floor could also handle the network. Like the current fleet of accessible buses, the entranceway will be accessible but a 70% LF requires some stairs if you want to move from the extreme end to end of the vehicle.
In order to build a 100% low floor tram the manufacturers had to pretty much reinvent the truck design. These new designs have difficulty handling sharp curves that we have in Toronto. The upside is that there will be no stairs to negotiate if you want to move from the extreme end to end of the vehicle.
From the perspective of a person in a mobility device such as yourself, 100% vs 70% probably won't make a difference because you're probably going to stay near the entrance where the seats can be flipped up to accommodate your presence. It's when you get into people who can walk but can't climb stairs that the difference becomes important.
DavidH
Senior Member
The Orion VIs were retired because the TTC moved away from natural gas and it was not feasible to rebuild them to diesel. The natural gas Orion Vs were rebuilt.
BTW, Durham Region still has about a dozen or so Orion VIs in service. They seem to be in fairly decent shape.
RedRocket191
Senior Member
Brampton just refurbished most of their Orion VI fleet, and just about every transit agency in the GTA continues to operate them.
Prometheus The Supremo
►Member №41+⅜◄
i just hope whatever choice is made is the right one which takes into account - crowding, emergency situations & ability to maneuver with ease.
as long as there's 2 doors on a low floor segment, you can go in one door and get out the other without having to turn a mobility device around. having to turn the mobility device around when the LRV is packed in order exit the same door you came in from could cause problems depending on the size of the mobility device. there might not be room available if too many people are on board in your way.
ShonTron
Moderator
The TTC spent the money to convert the Orion V CNGs, I know that. It is telling that they never bothered to refit the newer VIs - precisely because they were built like crap and had bad layouts (for example, the huge space wasted for the engine, AC, and rear wheelwells, lots of "this is not a seat" signs, and the dumb rear door, except the HSR order) and low capacity.
905 systems still have them, but you won't see them much on routes like 1 King, 1 Queen, 1 Dundas, 2 Main, 2 Barton, 19 Hurontario, you see them on the quiet routes or as rush hour extras, precisely because they suck, and they're stuck with them. The 40 foot buses on busier routes are D40LFs, Novas, or older, higher-capacity, high-floor buses. 905 systems, except for early Mississauga and Oakville one-time orders, avoided the Orion VII, partly due to the problems with the Orion VI. They all went to New Flyer or Nova.
DavidH
Senior Member
I'm not arguing that the VI was a brilliant design - they're obviously not. But I've always heard that due to the specific details of how the CNG versions were designed, they were prohibitively expensive to convert.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
khris
Senior Member
Plan rolls out new era in transit
Nov 24, 2008 04:30 AM
Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter
When the shovels go in the ground on the first of the city's proposed Transit City lines next September, it will mark the beginning of a new era in Toronto transit.
Sheppard East will be the first of the seven proposed light-rail lines to use supersized streetcars to bring downtown-style transit to the suburbs.
"Transit City is based on the principle that no one should be disadvantaged by not owning a car. (It) takes the high-quality transit service available in the core and begins to extend that to the four corners of Toronto," said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.
"(Transit City) takes a downtown reality, where transit is not only competitive but, in many cases, is superior to the private automobile, and begins to extend that across the entire city, making transit a real and viable alternative to people in every corner of the city," he said.
The ride offered by the sleek Euro-style light-rail vehicles will be a far cry from the old streetcars on Queen and King Sts.
They'll be fast, for one thing. Simulations show the cars would move at 23 kilometres per hour, travelling from Don Mills Station to Meadowvale Rd. in 36.5 minutes.
Spurs to the zoo and the Scarborough Civic Centre are being studied. Giambrone said it makes sense to build them.
Sheppard East stops will be farther apart than those on a typical bus route – 400 to 500 metres above-ground and about 800 metres below-ground – but the speed and ease of loading riders through all doors will save time for users who might do some extra walking.
Cars will run every four to six minutes in rush hour; and six to 10 minutes at low times.
"It builds on the idea of `a car in sight,'" Giambrone said.
Up to 3,000 riders per hour are expected to use the Sheppard line.
For a subway line to be viable, the TTC figures it needs 10,000 riders per hour, minimum. But extending the Sheppard subway by one stop might make sense here. By 2021, Sheppard East is projected to carry 20 million people annually.
The LRT will run on two lanes along a raised median, about 15 centimetres high, in the middle of the road. Traffic will run on either side of the streetcar line, much as it does on St. Clair Ave. Where possible, cycling lanes will be built next to the sidewalks.
The road will still need widening at intersections to make room for a left-turn lane and a TTC platform.
Cars will be able to cross the tracks only at intersections with signals, the only place where left-hand turns and U-turns on advanced green arrows will be allowed.
It will take another three months to decide how Sheppard East will look at either end of the line, said the TTC's Transit City project manager, Sameh Ghaly.
The TTC is considering whether to create a tunnel under Highway 404 to connect the streetcar at the track level of the Sheppard subway at Don Mills Station. Another option would be to extend the subway another stop to Consumers Rd., to accommodate workers in the business park there.
The TTC is trying to avoid the transfer problems encountered at older TTC stations such as Kennedy, where riders must walk long distances to connect with the GO, SRT and subway, Ghaly said.
It's all part of changing the TTC's culture to pay more attention to rider comfort and convenience, he said. "If we didn't have this mentality, we would not have recommended Sheppard would come to the platform."
To the east, a separate environmental assessment will look at the possibility of continuing the Sheppard line to the Durham Region border, where passengers could connect with transit there.
Source
Nov 24, 2008 04:30 AM
Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter
When the shovels go in the ground on the first of the city's proposed Transit City lines next September, it will mark the beginning of a new era in Toronto transit.
Sheppard East will be the first of the seven proposed light-rail lines to use supersized streetcars to bring downtown-style transit to the suburbs.
"Transit City is based on the principle that no one should be disadvantaged by not owning a car. (It) takes the high-quality transit service available in the core and begins to extend that to the four corners of Toronto," said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.
"(Transit City) takes a downtown reality, where transit is not only competitive but, in many cases, is superior to the private automobile, and begins to extend that across the entire city, making transit a real and viable alternative to people in every corner of the city," he said.
The ride offered by the sleek Euro-style light-rail vehicles will be a far cry from the old streetcars on Queen and King Sts.
They'll be fast, for one thing. Simulations show the cars would move at 23 kilometres per hour, travelling from Don Mills Station to Meadowvale Rd. in 36.5 minutes.
Spurs to the zoo and the Scarborough Civic Centre are being studied. Giambrone said it makes sense to build them.
Sheppard East stops will be farther apart than those on a typical bus route – 400 to 500 metres above-ground and about 800 metres below-ground – but the speed and ease of loading riders through all doors will save time for users who might do some extra walking.
Cars will run every four to six minutes in rush hour; and six to 10 minutes at low times.
"It builds on the idea of `a car in sight,'" Giambrone said.
Up to 3,000 riders per hour are expected to use the Sheppard line.
For a subway line to be viable, the TTC figures it needs 10,000 riders per hour, minimum. But extending the Sheppard subway by one stop might make sense here. By 2021, Sheppard East is projected to carry 20 million people annually.
The LRT will run on two lanes along a raised median, about 15 centimetres high, in the middle of the road. Traffic will run on either side of the streetcar line, much as it does on St. Clair Ave. Where possible, cycling lanes will be built next to the sidewalks.
The road will still need widening at intersections to make room for a left-turn lane and a TTC platform.
Cars will be able to cross the tracks only at intersections with signals, the only place where left-hand turns and U-turns on advanced green arrows will be allowed.
It will take another three months to decide how Sheppard East will look at either end of the line, said the TTC's Transit City project manager, Sameh Ghaly.
The TTC is considering whether to create a tunnel under Highway 404 to connect the streetcar at the track level of the Sheppard subway at Don Mills Station. Another option would be to extend the subway another stop to Consumers Rd., to accommodate workers in the business park there.
The TTC is trying to avoid the transfer problems encountered at older TTC stations such as Kennedy, where riders must walk long distances to connect with the GO, SRT and subway, Ghaly said.
It's all part of changing the TTC's culture to pay more attention to rider comfort and convenience, he said. "If we didn't have this mentality, we would not have recommended Sheppard would come to the platform."
To the east, a separate environmental assessment will look at the possibility of continuing the Sheppard line to the Durham Region border, where passengers could connect with transit there.
Source
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Wow thats in 10 months,lets keep or fingers crossed that this will happen,by the way have they even figured out what trams to purchase.
Ansem
Banned
Well, I'm relieved that extending The Sheppard line to the east is still on the table.
caltrane74
Senior Member
Only if you have brainfreeze do you not tunnel under the 404.....
The intersection at Sheppard and 404 is probably the worst traffic blocker in the entire GTA. And Consumers Rd includes a huge employee community...(which includes caltrane)
The intersection at Sheppard and 404 is probably the worst traffic blocker in the entire GTA. And Consumers Rd includes a huge employee community...(which includes caltrane)