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Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
Here are some more examples of heavy rail operating at street level. Keep in mind that they do not have their own right of way, hence the speed can be lower and they may make more noise as well.

Oakland, California
[video=youtube;-fPO1oMXkhg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fPO1oMXkhg&feature=related[/video]

Otsu, Japan
[video=youtube;zfcHRQnbYW4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfcHRQnbYW4&feature=related[/video]

Le Prese, Switzerland
[video=youtube;bFOO-tEgbIw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFOO-tEgbIw[/video]

Michigan City, Indiana
[video=youtube;xEydAJK8d7I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEydAJK8d7I[/video]
 
No S*it. Long distance trip should be the responbility of GO Transit. Are you saying the TTC should be responsible for someone's trip into the 905?

Yes and no. GO was setup to handle cross border trips, not so the TTC could focus on the milk run. While GO continues to improve its intra-region service, it doesn't mean the Toronto can wash its hands of the responsibility of moving people moderate distances within its borders.

Having read Giambrone's articles before, he can be a left version of Ford propaganda BS (reality TV plot: Giambrone and Ford are roommates, a new generation of The Odd Couple). Sure the average commute might be 6km (approximately 3 city blocks), but is that including downtown and inner city areas into the mix? Seeing as the distances needed to be covered are much further in Scarborough, I can imagine the average distances being at least twice that.
 
No one denies LRT costs less (except the vehicles). Maybe they should also admit the fact those cities also had/have well established grade-seperated rail networks; and I'm not sure why's he using Hong Kong as an example, it's the farthest thing from what's being proposed for Transit City - or maybe he's referring to the trams (in-median ROW).

Hong Kong also has a LRT system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Rail_(MTR)
Lrt_p41111.jpg


Also... the light at the end of the tunnel? Two steps:

  1. The expert panel needs to decide what's best for Sheppard East.
  2. The city needs to sign a master agreement, which may either go through city council or be delegated to city staff.
Ford could potentially mess with the second step.

Metrolinx: Toronto needs to sign on dotted line for new light-rail plan
Published On Thu Feb 16 2012
Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter

Toronto’s return to an above-ground light rail plan will need to clear at least one, and possibly two, more hurdles at city council before Metrolinx considers the matter settled.

First council has to approve a plan for Sheppard East, where Mayor Rob Ford wants to build a subway — so far unfunded — but many transit experts say a road-level LRT makes more sense. A panel of outside experts will make its recommendations to council by March 21.

But the $8.4 billion provincially funded transit plan, endorsed at a special meeting of council last week, won’t be final until the city signs a master agreement confirming all the details, said Metrolinx chair Rob Prichard. That contract could go through council or be delegated to city staff.

Whatever the mechanics of entering that agreement, “That will be the moment when we’re bound together by contract,” he told reporters following the public session of the Metrolinx board on Thursday.

The Sheppard panel meets Friday behind closed doors. Led by city manager Joe Pennachetti, it will include advice and support from Metrolinx, but no one from the province will sit on the panel.

The Toronto Board of Trade has also refused to sit among the experts that include Ford’s subway point man Gordon Chong, U of T Cities Centre director Eric Miller and former mayor David Crombie.

“We believe that Metrolinx should be the body to lead those kind of discussions — on what needs to be built, where it needs to be built and when it needs to be built. The province should allow them to do that, to basically move forward on the mandate they were given, which we don’t believe they’re being given from the province right now,” said Carol Wilding, president of the Toronto Board of Trade.

Metrolinx needs to listen to municipalities and balance their needs within the region, while de-politicizing the process, she said.

But the politics of transit were clearly worrying some members of the Metrolinx board Thursday.

Doug Turnbull, deputy chairman of TD Securities, worried aloud whether the province might pull its funding in light of the dire financial warnings in Don Drummond’s Wednesday report.

“My concern is we have a mayor who doesn’t want to take yes for an answer,” he said, although Prichard said the province’s financial commitment remains firm.

But in a farewell speech urging Metrolinx to take the politics out of transit planning, outgoing board member Paul Bedford warned that doing nothing “is the worst consequence.”

Bedford, one of the few founding members remaining on the Metrolinx board, learned last month that his term wasn’t being renewed. Toronto’s former head planner said, “It reinforced my belief that planning is political.”

His parting message to Metrolinx was that it needs to be bold. He urged the board to immediately begin campaigning for the regional taxes and tolls needed to raise $3 billion a year toward the Metrolinx transit expansion plan.

Bedford acknowledged that those revenue tools, including a regional sales tax, road tolls and more gasoline tax, are “politically hot as hell.”

But, he said, “The question should be, ‘Do you want subways and are you prepared to pay from this revenue menu to get them?’”

“This board is not here to give political advice,” he said. “It is not a branch of the Ontario Ministry of Transportation.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/transpo...o-sign-on-dotted-line-for-new-light-rail-plan
 
Yes and no. GO was setup to handle cross border trips, not so the TTC could focus on the milk run. While GO continues to improve its intra-region service, it doesn't mean the Toronto can wash its hands of the responsibility of moving people moderate distances within its borders.

Ehhh. That was why Transit City was proposed. To improve the commute on heavily travelled bus routes that are currently slow, and overcrowded. But that's not good enough for you guys, because it's not fast enough, it's not "rapid transit"(by your definition), it should elevated, etc,etc.
There are many GO Stations in Toronto, so GO can easily provide service to the outlying areas that can attract riders, and provide an alternative.
 
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I don't think you checked my url in the post. I did included the LRT url, and explained why Transit City is not comparable.

Not quite an explanation, but I do see how the LRT system is different in the manner that it resemble more the C-Train lines than the Transit City lines.
 
1/ Property tax can be increased 10% with ALL proceeds to be invested in Subway construction only. Yes I am a residential property owner in Toronto.

Transit benefits everyone, why only property owners should pay for that? Increase sales tax or whatever so that everyone pays for it.
 
The NOW article is misleading. LRT can have a capacity up to 15-20,000 pph depending on the design of the line. A good example is Budapest's Line 4 and 6 which utilizes Siemens Combino Supra Trams. This line has operating capacity of 10,000pph at the moment. The headways are 2 minutes. Yes, 2 minutes. I find it amazing you would doubt experts that say LRT cannot achieve 15,000pph. Are you an expert?

Looking at the line you are mentioning it looks like it has LRVs about 54m long. If it has trams running every 2 minutes then that almost certainly means that the trams are stopping at red lights all the time, so they must be pretty slow. So while maybe in theory 15,000 is possible with LRT, I think that this is highly inefficient and anything over 5,000-7,500 should be a subway. Do we really want slow as hell trams stopping at a zillion red lights on Eglinton East, and large volumes of pedestrians walking in front causing delays? Not to mention that the way the TTC operates things, the trams would probably run in bunches of 3 or 4 causing the whole line to become unreliable.
 
Do we really want slow as hell trams stopping at a zillion red lights on Eglinton East, and large volumes of pedestrians walking in front causing delays?

Eglinton East does not have a zillion red lights. Distances between traffic lights on suburban streets are much longer than in the old city.

Not to mention that the way the TTC operates things, the trams would probably run in bunches of 3 or 4 causing the whole line to become unreliable.

Even subways are not 100% reliable. Instead of burying the whole line, a better way to make it more reliable is to establish short-turn facilities at major stations.
 
You just need to look at this graph comparing Ford's plan to Transit City

Not to defend the Ford's plan, but that graph is misleading. Both pictures include lines that are not funded, but the left picture (for Transit City) contains much more such lines.

A valid comparison should show a network of LRT lines versus a network of subway lines that can be built for the same amount of money.
 
Well this is probably going to be working in Ford's favour on this issue: http://www.scribd.com/doc/81697448/Toronto-Issues-Poll-Forum-Research-20120213

Torontonians prefer subways to LRT

Public opts both for subways overall and for detailed subway plan

Toronto, February 13th, 2012 – In a recent survey conducted by Forum Researchamong Toronto residents aged 18 years or older, it was found that the majority of residents prefer a subway-based transit plan over an aboveground LRT-based transit plan (57%, compared to 38%. 5% of those polled approve of neither). Not surprisingly, the significant majority of those who approve of the job Rob Ford is doing as mayor preferred a subway-based transit plan (80%; compared to 39%that disapprove). Toronto residents who usually drive to get to work or school,as opposed to those who take the TTC, were also significantly more likely to back a subway-based plan (65% compared to 53% who rely on public transit).Residents of Toronto / East York were significantly more likely to prefer an LRT-based plan when compared to residents living in all other areas of Toronto (50%;compared to 37% North York, 31% Scarborough, 28% Etobicoke / York).

Of the two transit plans proposed for Toronto, residents prefer the plan where two subways would be built, one along Eglinton Avenue and one along Sheppard Avenue East to Scarborough Town Centre with an Express Busway operating along Finch Avenue West (48%), with another four of 10 residents backing the plan that would have four above-ground Light Rail Transit lines built along Eglinton Avenue, Sheppard Avenue, Finch Avenue and one to replace the Scarborough Rapid Transit line (41%). One in 10 residents polled did not have an opinion on the matter (10%). Residents of Toronto / East York were significantlymore likely to back the LRT plan when compared to residents living in all otherareas of Toronto (55%; compared to 40% Scarborough, 34% North York, and 33% Etobicoke / York) Again, to little surprise, those who approve of the job Rob Ford is doing as Mayor of Toronto were significantly more likely to back the subway based transit plan (75%; compared to 28% that disapprove), as were Toronto residents who usually drive to get to work or school as opposed to those who take the TTC (58% compared to 41% who rely on public transit).
 
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It's Forum Research. Note that their "report" didn't say what the question they were asking was. The previous time they polled on this, they used something along the lines of "like St. Clair streetcars" to describe Transit City.

They also don't note who was paying the bill.
 
It's most likely that it's not really required for Torontonians to be telled they're paying for it. You have to be taking a huge leap in assuming that over half of Torontonians is stupid enough to believe that they don't have to be paying more taxes to get the subway dream going.
 

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