Paleo
Active Member
But an articulated bus wouldn't provide relief for the 401!
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- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
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But an articulated bus wouldn't provide relief for the 401!
And an LRT that takes 45 mins to get from Morningside to Don Mills is?
Come on, that same distance on the 401 takes what, 10 minutes in free flowing traffic? If that?
And technology doesn't determine speed, operating environment and stop spacing does. In identical circumstances, an articulated bus can travel just as fast as an LRT vehicle can.
EDIT: Overall, I think this myth that any kind of rapid transit on Sheppard is going to somehow relieve the 401 is complete BS. They're serving two completely different markets. The only true competitors to the 401 are either Regional Express Rail (Electrified All-Day GO), or Express BRT (probably using the Finch Hydro Corridor).
Anything else will be significantly slower, and thus won't do much to relieve the 401.
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Palma
Senior Member
Who cares if it does not relieve the 401. If people want to continue to drive on the 401 then they need to put up with the congestion. The LRT is for people who rely on transit. And if an articulated bus can travel just as fast as an LRT vehicle can it certainly cannot hold as many people, is it its own dedicated lane so it will not be held up in traffic plus the ride is more comfortable.
Justin10000
Banned
Say what you will about LRT. The LRT ride is far more comfortable than a bumpy bus ride.
401, free flowing traffic? haha!
401, free flowing traffic? haha!
Admiral Beez
Superstar
If these new LRTs are going to run down the middle of Sheppard Ave then won't they get stuck behind the same red lights, left turning traffic, etc as other vehicles?
car4041
Active Member
This is not the Queen streetcar we're talking about -- the Sheppard LRT will have its own right-of-way, like on Spadina or St. Clair, so left-turning traffic will not be an issue. Signal priority can take care of the red lights. I'm not sure what your "etc" refers to.
Umm, your post was specifically "But an articulated bus wouldn't provide relief for the 401!". That's what I was responding to.
I'm not denying that. But in the case like Finch West, I'd rather have a bumpy BRT ride that gets me across all of Finch West than a smooth LRT ride that gets me halfway across Finch West.
And it's funny how pro-LRT people dismiss BRT the same way that pro-subway people dismiss LRT. "It's not comfortable", "it's second-rate transit", "it's too slow", etc etc etc.
Outside of peak, the 401 from the DVP to Pickering flows pretty well. I can count on one hand the number of times I've hit a non-accident related slowdown on that stretch outside of peak hours. The central stretch between the DVP and 427 is a different story though.
car4041
Active Member
I think you're getting Palma and Paleo mixed up. And I think Paleo's original post was sarcastic -- poking fun at andrewpmk's obsession with using 401 traffic to justify a Sheppard subway.
You are correct, oops! I only did a quick look and saw that it started with a P, haha. My apologies Palma!
Justin10000
Banned
Finch west is not getting BRT. It's astounding that you consider queue jump lanes, and a larger bus to be BRT. Typical of pro-bus people to consider anything that is more than a bus, and a basic stop to be BRT.
In other words, the 401 is not free flowing across the city.
Electrify
Senior Member
While not designed to compete directly with the 401, comparisons will naturally be made. Play with Bing and Google Maps during rush hour and get the time estimates between Consumers and Morningside. Even staying on Sheppard, it still looks to be faster by car than by taking the proposed LRT. Diverting to the 401, even in rush hour, totally smokes the LRT's travel times.
If we could turn back time 5-10 years, I'd say build the Finch LRT across the city mostly in the hydro corridor (like how most real LRTs are built) and run the Sheppard subway north to East Beaver Creek/Commerce Valley along or under the 404. The Finch line would not only be cheaper to build and operate faster, but will draw less comparisons in performance to the 401 since it won't be right next to it. Meanwhile besides reaching a number of current and future mixed use developments, because of the way the 404's lanes are designed it will provide a definite speed advantage during both peak and off peak times.
If we could turn back time 5-10 years, I'd say build the Finch LRT across the city mostly in the hydro corridor (like how most real LRTs are built) and run the Sheppard subway north to East Beaver Creek/Commerce Valley along or under the 404. The Finch line would not only be cheaper to build and operate faster, but will draw less comparisons in performance to the 401 since it won't be right next to it. Meanwhile besides reaching a number of current and future mixed use developments, because of the way the 404's lanes are designed it will provide a definite speed advantage during both peak and off peak times.
Justin10000
Banned
Other than some members on this board, and that Andrew person posting comparisons on every blog he could find, I haven't heard anyone comparing the LRT travel times to the 401 travel times in the media, or on blogs, because it's absolutely pointless. I
would argue it's a red-herring just to add more unnecessary critism of the SELRT. It's been said many times before, but a subway is not going to divert
traffic from the 401, so comparisions to transit on Sheppard is a waste of time.
Speaking of door to door travel times. A car will almost ALWAYS beat transit. A transit user is going to lose 5-10 minutes just walking to a stop.
Name a couple of North American LRT's that were built after 2000 that were built entirely in hydro corridors.
Electrify
Senior Member
Whether it has been mentioned in the media or not, it is something that people will consider and think about. Rapid transit when including travel time to and from the stop might not beat car travel times, but should be relatively competitive to it. From Yonge and Sheppard, it is almost certain that it is faster to get downtown by taking the subway when compared to driving down Yonge, or diverting east to the DVP. The same cannot be said about getting to Morningside, or even Fairview Mall.
Maybe not a hydro corridor specifically, but certainly taking advantage of nearby right of ways is pretty much the norm. Kitchener-Wateroo's LRT will be using a rail corridor for part of its route, Meanwhile LRTs in Minneapolis and Charlotte both use off road alignments when possible.
Markster
Senior Member
I would agree that to say "mostly in the hydro corridor (like how most real LRTs
are built)" is a large overstatement of the use of hydro corridors. I'm not aware of any right now that use them, but I am not an expert on North American LRT routings.
Of note however, is that a couple weeks ago the Kitchener-Waterloo LRT was officially designated to run in a hydro corridor for a length of about 1 km. However, it's not as cheap as laying tracks on the grass. They're going to bury the electricity lines first.
are built)" is a large overstatement of the use of hydro corridors. I'm not aware of any right now that use them, but I am not an expert on North American LRT routings.
Of note however, is that a couple weeks ago the Kitchener-Waterloo LRT was officially designated to run in a hydro corridor for a length of about 1 km. However, it's not as cheap as laying tracks on the grass. They're going to bury the electricity lines first.