[gweed123]

I never understood why Sheppard East (oops, correction made) was deemed TC line 1.

Because Miller & Co wanted it to be. They wanted to remove the debate around the extension of the Sheppard Subway. If the SELRT was in place, transit expansion could take place elsewhere without the continual "why don't we spend it on the Sheppard Subway instead?" debates.

Unfortunately, this desire to bury controversy (or not bury it, haha) doesn't match up with the actual transit priorities for the City.

 

[drum118]

You want to know the sad thing? If the TTC introduced a limited stop bus with the same stop spacing as the LRT at 400m, in many international systems that would be the most frequent their local lines would stop.

Want to know something even sadder? One of the reasons why the TTC chose LRT over a BRT was because rthey didn't want to run duplicate service along the corridor!

www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/faq.htm#q06

The happy part is, LRT has room to carry more riders than BRT, cheaper to operate and a smoother ride.

Headway on LRT in Europe range from 3-20 minutes depending on the time of day, day of week and the route.

Some systems have interlining for either the centre area or parts of the line. In some cases, you can have as many as 4 lines using the centre area and that will reduce the headway more.

Budapest had Siemens 6 section LRT articulated trams running on Route 4 & 6, where you were waiting no more than 5 minutes on a Sunday for one of these Trams in the City Centre and they were pack full. That would be on the south side of the river. As to where they split on the north side, have no idea, as I never made it that far. TTC can't do that with the 501 ARLV's today.

 

[EnviroTO]

^ And Sheppard was the subway construction priority because Ford and Lastman wanted it to be. So one group decided it was the highest priority, and the other side gave them the priority they wanted with a technology better scaled for anticipated demand. For both groups it shouldn't have been a priority.

 

[gweed123]

It clearly states that BRT would not have the capacity to handle the projected demand, they would need bypass lanes at stops for express buses and there is not enough room for them.

I call BS. Woodroffe Ave in Ottawa, very similar to many stretches of Sheppard East, carries the 94 & 95 Transitway routes, as well as a plethora of local routes. It carries about as many people NOW as the SELRT is projected to carry in 2031. It works just fine, and it's only curb side BRT lanes with signal priority.

They chose LRT for the same reason they chose LRT everywhere else: because they wanted LRT. The rationale report for the Jane LRT was a complete joke. There was a chart that showed the capacity of each system, and the projected ridership was at the very low end of the LRT spectrum, and right in the middle of the BRT spectrum. The next paragraph had something like "BRT cannot handle the projected ridership, and thus has been excluded from further consideration".

The technology selection choice had NOTHING to do with what each of the technologies can actual handle. It was selected based on which one was perceived to be sexiest.

 

[Electrify]

It clearly states that BRT would not have the capacity to handle the projected demand, they would need bypass lanes at stops for express buses and there is not enough room for them.

So the fact that we will have an express branch on Sheppard East out of desperation while we wait for the LRT to be constructed is not just sad, but also kind of ironic.

 

[Dan416]

I think this further convinces me that we should have built one Finch line rather than Finch West and Sheppard East lines.

 

[Rainforest]

Finch West should definitely have been put ahead of Sheppard. If the construction of Finch West LRT had started, it would be harder for Ford to cancel it, or for the province to defer the funding.

Making Sheppard LRT a priority in order to preempt the subway extension was a poor strategy, and likely contributed to the current messy state of transit expansion. When various groups of transit advocates disagree on the technology choice, the government is tempted to build nothing and direct the funds elsewhere.

To be fair, building the initial subway segment on Sheppard with no guarantees of further funding was not a good idea, either.

 

[GenerationW]

^ And Sheppard was the subway construction priority because Ford and Lastman wanted it to be. So one group decided it was the highest priority, and the other side gave them the priority they wanted with a technology better scaled for anticipated demand. For both groups it shouldn't have been a priority.

It was also a priority for David Miller in his first term.

 

[Jaye101]

I call BS. Woodroffe Ave in Ottawa, very similar to many stretches of Sheppard East, carries the 94 & 95 Transitway routes, as well as a plethora of local routes. It carries about as many people NOW as the SELRT is projected to carry in 2031. It works just fine, and it's only curb side BRT lanes with signal priority.

They chose LRT for the same reason they chose LRT everywhere else: because they wanted LRT. The rationale report for the Jane LRT was a complete joke. There was a chart that showed the capacity of each system, and the projected ridership was at the very low end of the LRT spectrum, and right in the middle of the BRT spectrum. The next paragraph had something like "BRT cannot handle the projected ridership, and thus has been excluded from further consideration".

The technology selection choice had NOTHING to do with what each of the technologies can actual handle. It was selected based on which one was perceived to be sexiest.

Are you, my friend, actually implying that Bus Rapid Transit lines can handle the same capacity as Light Rail transit lines?

Unless you want passing lanes that take up road space, Bus Rapid Transit isn't really that rapid at most ~3,000 PPH.

LRT's can be coupled and platforms extended when demand rises to accommodate up to 15,000 PPH in exclusive right of ways, maybe about 9-10,000 PPH for Sheppard's configuration if full transit priority is in place with coupled vehicles. Bus rapid transit does not use space as efficiently, and because it's independently navigated and not on a track the ride isn't as comfortable and it does not attract as many riders.

The reason why the TTC did not chose BRT is because to accommodate Sheppard's growing ridership bypass lanes would be required, and there is not enough space to create a healthy walking environment or accommodate two lanes of traffic, a bike lane, separate turning lanes and BRT WITH passing lanes..

Who would really wants to ride a bus, anyways?

 

[dowlingm]

The other issue with BRT in Toronto though is TTC's deathly fear of artics, only gotten over in recent months.

 

[BurlOak]

The subway obsession on Sheppard has been a drain on transit expansion in this city for almost a generation, if building the Sheppard LRT first puts an end to that then it will be more that worth building first even if there is a slightly better case for the other lines.

How did that strategy of doing Sheppard first work out? It resulted in nothing being done for 10 years.

Leaving Sheppard in limbo would have been the best strategy. The Spadina extension was done with the spectre of Sheppard still there. Finch West and Eglinton could have been done while again bypassing Sheppard. As long as the hope that Sheppard subway would be extended remained, transit could have been inproved elsewhere. It was the plan to kill that hope that lead to the problems we are in now.

 

[Jaye101]

^^ Leaving Sheppard in limbo would have been a poor choice, because:

1. The Sheppard subway would remain underused and this would continue to be a problem for the TTC in the upcoming years.

2. A lot of you seem to argue that the case isn't even there for LRT as opposed to BRT. The truth of the matter is that Sheppard East, especially in the east end, is very far from higher orders of transit. It has more to do with city building, and making transit accessible to the most people possible than actually satisfying growing ridership (although it does this as well).

3. If the Sheppard LRT is not built, there is a chance the Sheppard Subway may never be fiscally viable.

4. Lastly, there's the issue that some idiot could've approved a Sheppard subway in the near future, and we really have other subway priorities right now that won't bleed the system.

These LRTs are really going to do wonders throughout North York, Etobicoke, and Scarborough. It will connect them to a network of local transit lines that work for their built environment without the excessive cost (and operating costs, yikes) of subways that would drive up fares, and make transit a less attractive option.

 

[JoeParez]

How did that strategy of doing Sheppard first work out? It resulted in nothing being done for 10 years.

Leaving Sheppard in limbo would have been the best strategy. The Spadina extension was done with the spectre of Sheppard still there. Finch West and Eglinton could have been done while again bypassing Sheppard. As long as the hope that Sheppard subway would be extended remained, transit could have been inproved elsewhere. It was the plan to kill that hope that lead to the problems we are in now.

Well Mayor Ford apparently popped into LeDrew live today for a surprise interview stating that "we're going to get a Sheppard Subway" -- so here we go again!

Kelly Grant ‏@kellygrant1 "I'm going right back after the subways," says @TOMayorFord on his transit plans for the city. #topoli

 

[BurlOak]

^^ Leaving Sheppard in limbo would have been a poor choice, because:
4. Lastly, there's the issue that some idiot could've approved a Sheppard subway in the near future, and we really have other subway priorities right now that won't bleed the system.

We have no subway priorities right now. The Transit City plan has multiple phases of LRT, but no subway. The only plans for subway were from Ford and Stitnz, and both were shot down.

 

[innsertnamehere]

he meant that it would eat up funding that he would rather see go to the DRL.