[junctionist]

I'd prefer to gradually expand the subway system. The subway represents true rapid transit which people want to use. The projected improvements to travel time aren't much better with LRT. Given this, one might call into question some of the LRT lines and their value. A mixed proposal of subway and LRT within Toronto would have been more palatable.

 

[urbanfan89]

Just be glad Steve Munro was not in charge of the TTC. He would have unveiled a system of swan canals because it was the technology du jour.

 

[Rainforest]

As it relates to Transit City, doesn't this make the assumption that the service will actually be "better"? I am guardedly optimistic about Eglinton and maybe the WWLRT, but other than those I don't see how TC is an improvement over vanilla bus service.The projected speeds are bus speeds, or within 3-4 km/h of bus speeds. Given the planned reduction in headways on these routes, to compensate for the larger passenger capacity of an LRT vs. bus, it is possible that overall travel time will increase.

If we compare a bus operating in good road conditions to surface LRT operating in good conditions, then the LRT's speed advantage will be small indeed.

But the situation changes dramatically when the road is congested. In that case, mixed-traffic buses can travel at 10 kph or worse. Eglinton West bus can be next to useless after a snowfall in the morning peak (a few times I managed to beat that bus on foot from Bathurst to Yonge). Finch West is not as bad as Eglinton (mainly because cars and trucks do not park on-street), but it experiences congestion, too. In that situation, just running in the dedicated lane will give the LRT a significant advantage, even if it stops for red lights.

 

[Rainforest]

Just be glad Steve Munro was not in charge of the TTC. He would have unveiled a system of swan canals because it was the technology du jour.

Swan boat jokes appear frequently on Steve Munro's site, but they are, well, jokes. Actually, he was not very keen to the idea of running passenger ferry boats from Etobicoke and Scarborough to downtown, voiced by one of TTC commissioners back a year or so.

 

[Rainforest]

And, to reiterate, Metrolinx is speculating about a Downsview-Kennedy Sheppard subway with a Sheppard LRT extending east. I'm not opposed to that, and the current construction schedule of the Sheppard LRT even supports that. If the money is available within the year to proceed, then let's do it. If it isn't, then the Sheppard East LRT as planned is still better service than what's currently there, and it doesn't preclude the possibility of K-W getting its LRT service either.

I like this idea. But unfortunately, it might be hard to implement because they have not started the design of the subway extension.

Let's say, they are done with the LRT trackage on Sheppard east of Kennedy by the end of 2010. Then, they would have a choice: extend LRT to Don Mills or Consumers (using the design already completed) and start service in a year or so. Or, start designing and then building the subway extension. In the latter case, the already completed LRT line east of Kennedy won't be usable for the next 5 or 7 years (except the short Markham Rd to Neilson segment interlined with the STC-Malvern service).

 

[nfitz]

Swan boat jokes appear frequently on Steve Munro's site, but they are, well, jokes. Actually, he was not very keen to the idea of running passenger ferry boats from Etobicoke and Scarborough to downtown, voiced by one of TTC commissioners back a year or so.

I don't understand this constantly trash Steve business. He's advocated that the Yonge extension should be subway based on demand. And he's advocated that the Downtown Relief should not only be subway, rather than streetcar, or Skytrain, but also that it should be sooner than later.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Just be glad Steve Munro was not in charge of the TTC. He would have unveiled a system of swan canals because it was the technology du jour.

I prefer to use my own personal transporter actually, but have always worried about getting my molecules scrabbled.

 

[Rainforest]

I don't understand this constantly trash Steve business. He's advocated that the Yonge extension should be subway based on demand. And he's advocated that the Downtown Relief should not only be subway, rather than streetcar, or Skytrain, but also that it should be sooner than later.

Yes, I hold a high esteem for Steve's work. He is a good analyst and can make unbiased decisions. If he was in charge of TTC, quite likely we would move faster on both the LRT and the subway construction projects.

 

[urbanfan89]

Yes, I hold a high esteem for Steve's work. He is a good analyst and can make unbiased decisions. If he was in charge of TTC, quite likely we would move faster on both the LRT and the subway construction projects.

Alas, City Hall and Queen's Park would be stuffed full of dolts with petty grudges against him and would take ages to approve anything.

 

[Whoaccio]

But the situation changes dramatically when the road is congested. In that case, mixed-traffic buses can travel at 10 kph or worse. Eglinton West bus can be next to useless after a snowfall in the morning peak (a few times I managed to beat that bus on foot from Bathurst to Yonge). Finch West is not as bad as Eglinton (mainly because cars and trucks do not park on-street), but it experiences congestion, too. In that situation, just running in the dedicated lane will give the LRT a significant advantage, even if it stops for red lights.

Right, which is why I support some kind of grade separation (LRT, subway, wtv...) along Eglinton. Given that underground busways are the pinnacle of dumb, that pretty much leaves only those two options. On suburban arterials like Finch W/Sheppard E. though, congestion outside of freak traffic events isn't such a big issue. Bus lanes* could achieve similar results with next to no cost. Other than that, much of what is applicable to LRVs is applicable to buses. Artics, multi-door boarding, signal priority, wider stop spacing plus a few others, like queue jumps.

* I am making the assumption that they would actually be enforced. Has this been the experience? No. But as long as we are planning billion dollar transit projects, I think it is fair to expect that things will be properly implemented.

 

[golodhendil]

Given that underground busways are the pinnacle of dumb

LOL I'm glad at least *someone* agrees with that.

*Edit*
I am going to make a demotivation poster to commemorate this:

I should probably pass this on to the anti-BRT folks here in Boston.

 

[afransen]

Right, which is why I support some kind of grade separation (LRT, subway, wtv...) along Eglinton. Given that underground busways are the pinnacle of dumb, that pretty much leaves only those two options. On suburban arterials like Finch W/Sheppard E. though, congestion outside of freak traffic events isn't such a big issue. Bus lanes* could achieve similar results with next to no cost. Other than that, much of what is applicable to LRVs is applicable to buses. Artics, multi-door boarding, signal priority, wider stop spacing plus a few others, like queue jumps.

* I am making the assumption that they would actually be enforced. Has this been the experience? No. But as long as we are planning billion dollar transit projects, I think it is fair to expect that things will be properly implemented.

If they wanted to get serious about it, all it would require are cameras.

 

[Rainforest]

Right, which is why I support some kind of grade separation (LRT, subway, wtv...) along Eglinton. Given that underground busways are the pinnacle of dumb, that pretty much leaves only those two options. On suburban arterials like Finch W/Sheppard E. though, congestion outside of freak traffic events isn't such a big issue. Bus lanes* could achieve similar results with next to no cost. Other than that, much of what is applicable to LRVs is applicable to buses. Artics, multi-door boarding, signal priority, wider stop spacing plus a few others, like queue jumps.

Each route is different

I am reasonably familiar with the Finch West area, and can note the following:
- Congestion is a real problem during the peak hours.
- Adding bus lanes won't come very cheap. Even though the public right of way is wide (except for a short section next to Yonge), the street is mostly 4-lanes wide. Adding two extra lanes, whether for LRT or for busway, will cost quite a bit and cause considerable disruption.
- Ridership is pretty high already, and if it grows significantly once the ROW is introduced, the physical capacity limit of the single-file busway system might be exceeded. An artic bus can probably carry 150 or 200 people, whereas a 2-car LRT train will be able to carry 350.
- LRT is more expensive to built, but is cheaper to operate when the ridership is high.

Therefore, I believe that LRT is the best solution for Finch West.

Sheppard East might be another matter. I am not familiar with the area, but from what I read on this forum, the planned LRT might not be the best solution. A better solution for only moderately higher cost could be as follows:
- Section between Yonge and Agincourt served by the extended Sheppard subway.
- Agincourt to Markham Rd has dedicated bus lanes.
- Markham Rd to Neilson has combined bus / LRT lanes to accomodate the STC - Malvern light rail line.
- East of Neilson, buses just continue in mixed traffic, and the existing branches are preserved (to the Zoo and to Port Credit / Rouge Hill).

 

[Dan416]

Each route is different

I am reasonably familiar with the Finch West area, and can note the following:
- Congestion is a real problem during the peak hours.
- Adding bus lanes won't come very cheap. Even though the public right of way is wide (except for a short section next to Yonge), the street is mostly 4-lanes wide. Adding two extra lanes, whether for LRT or for busway, will cost quite a bit and cause considerable disruption.
- Ridership is pretty high already, and if it grows significantly once the ROW is introduced, the physical capacity limit of the single-file busway system might be exceeded. An artic bus can probably carry 150 or 200 people, whereas a 2-car LRT train will be able to carry 350.
- LRT is more expensive to built, but is cheaper to operate when the ridership is high.

Therefore, I believe that LRT is the best solution for Finch West.

Sheppard East might be another matter. I am not familiar with the area, but from what I read on this forum, the planned LRT might not be the best solution. A better solution for only moderately higher cost could be as follows:
- Section between Yonge and Agincourt served by the extended Sheppard subway.
- Agincourt to Markham Rd has dedicated bus lanes.
- Markham Rd to Neilson has combined bus / LRT lanes to accomodate the STC - Malvern light rail line.
- East of Neilson, buses just continue in mixed traffic, and the existing branches are preserved (to the Zoo and to Port Credit / Rouge Hill).

Port Credit? That's in Mississauga. You must be confused with somewhere else

 

[kEiThZ]

Port Credit? That's in Mississauga. You must be confused with somewhere else

Me thinks he meant Port Union.