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Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%

  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%
  • Total voters
    120
An interesting piece on how screwed up the names are...

http://www.blogto.com/city/2012/03/how_the_ttc_sullied_the_reputation_of_lrt_part_i/

Regarding Chong's appendix, his claims that using a subway would be the most cost effective are highly dubious. Without seeing how he gets his numbers, I'm going to assume that it is based on labour and the number of vehicles used. By this logic though, the Sheppard subway is an incredible value! Only a handful of 4-car trains, powered by electricity, carry nearly 50,000 people per day across a distance of 5.6km each way! You would need several LRT trains, each with its own driver, to provide such service!

Of course, this ignores the costs involved in maintaining the tunnels and stations, ticket staff and/or security, and other expenses involved in operating and maintaining an underground rail line.
 
kEiThZ said:
It's a moronic notion to try and sell LRT as subway. Don't bother. The people of Toronto aren't stupid. They aren't going to buy it. It's like people trying to sell St. Clair as LRT lite (both those for and against LRT). Yet, to the average person it's still a streetcar. And I will bet money that's exactly what most Torontonians will call the LRT: the streetcar. It'll not be the Sheppard LRT. It'll be known as the Sheppard streetcar.
...
.
Click to expand...

Well said. I think the term LRT is applied a bit loosly in the context of Toronto public transit. I grew up in St. Petersburg, which, up to late 80th, had the longest tram network in the world. If you look at tram lines outside of the city core, you would say they look like LRT, but the locals would call them "tramway" and would use it mostly for short trips:

spb1q.jpg


(btw, there is a busy subway line deep down under this street). The tram lines are getting removed from the city core, but there is also a plan to build a new LRT line in the suburbs: it will be mostly elevated to avoid crossing major intersection, have infrequent stops (every 1500m), and have a speed up to 100km/h (some info here). I would love to see something similar build on Sheppard...

PS by mistake, I initially posted this reply in the Sheppard LRT thread
 
Marcus Gee and Royson James make one important note regarding Ford's subway plan. Here's hoping Ford can climb down from his pedestal and take a serious look at these.

Marcus Gee said:
The advisory panel sets out what could be the easiest expedient: raising the property tax. The city would not need provincial approval to do it, and an increase of 0.6 to 0.9 per cent a year for seven years would support the debt the city would have to take on for a Sheppard subway extension.
Click to expand...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...e-with-tax-plan-to-pay-for-it/article2372401/

Royson James said:
Still, Ford has one faint hope to deliver on his Sheppard Subway promise. How he plays his hand will either propel him into the role of civic leader or expose him as a fraud.

The one shot at redemption is found on pages 20 to 23 of the expert panel’s report. It shows how a very modest 1 per cent property tax hike, dedicated to the Sheppard subway for seven years, could provide all the money needed.

There would be no need to rely on speculative and massive buildings along the Sheppard corridor or untried financial instruments or even the road tolls and parking fees that Ford himself has dismissed.
Click to expand...

http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhal...95--ford-s-last-sheppard-subway-lifeline?bn=1
 
So...any conjecture about what will happen if Mayor Ford shows up with a motion to create a dedicated sales tax, or increase property taxes, to fund the Sheppard Line? It would be surprising, but it wouldn't be out of the range of possibility. He's been so narrowly fixated on this one line, that maybe he's just fixated enough to override some of his other promises.
That, or it could be seen that he's not that dedicated to it. A tax increase might fund Sheppard, but would it sustain it - or other items on the TTC budget? What about other much-needed projects, such as the DRL or waterfront line? Would this tax increase become a general TTC subsidy?

How much confusion (and what kinds of it) could a move like this create on council?
 
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I've lost any hope he will... Looks like he is capable of holding only simple, uni-dimensional ideas, such as:

--People want subways;
--People don't want new taxes;
--Toronto has no revenue problem;
--Stop the gravy train;
--Stay the course no matter what
 
Enough talk, build Transit City NOW!
Ford's War Against Public Transit is delaying, delaying, and delaying badly needed rapid transit ALL over the city. Rob Ford's wanting the Subway without the facts to back it, will only result in more required Environmental Assessments, which means more delays for badly needed rapid transit.

At least with Transit City, we would be getting rapid transit sooner, not later. Just build them. For more transit riders, not just for the lucky few.

BTW. As of midnight (Sunday, March 18th, morning), the price of gasoline is going UP 3¢. Of course, with Rob & Doug Ford being millionaires, they can afford to drive themselves in their horseless carriages. The rest of us will have to walk (sorry that you don't have a sidewalk in your neighbourhood), ride your bike (sorry, no bike lanes for you, roads are for cars), take public transit (sorry, no rapid transit construction in your part of the city), or take a car (sorry that you lost your job due to outsourcing, so you can't fill it).
 
Television commercials discriminate against the poor and the student! Transit City is a good way to serve the poor and the student.

Transit City should be constructed. Horseless carriage commercials are too tantalizing for those who rely on welfare, those who make minimum wage, and those who are students. Transit City benefits those three demographic groups greatly by providing high quality public transit nearby. Unfortunately, most television channels assume that you are not poor and not a student.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Enough talk, build Transit City NOW!
Ford's War Against Public Transit is delaying, delaying, and delaying badly needed rapid transit ALL over the city. Rob Ford's wanting the Subway without the facts to back it, will only result in more required Environmental Assessments, which means more delays for badly needed rapid transit.

At least with Transit City, we would be getting rapid transit sooner, not later. Just build them. For more transit riders, not just for the lucky few.

BTW. As of midnight (Sunday, March 18th, morning), the price of gasoline is going UP 3¢. Of course, with Rob & Doug Ford being millionaires, they can afford to drive themselves in their horseless carriages. The rest of us will have to walk (sorry that you don't have a sidewalk in your neighbourhood), ride your bike (sorry, no bike lanes for you, roads are for cars), take public transit (sorry, no rapid transit construction in your part of the city), or take a car (sorry that you lost your job due to outsourcing, so you can't fill it).
Click to expand...

I wonder how much of his talk about building underground has more to do with his hope that NOTHING at all gets built, rather than wanting transit to be fast, let alone ensuring that drivers aren't inconvenienced in any way.

He negotiated the MOU with the province, then didn't even try to drum up support for it. So when it came time to vote on it, it didn't go through. Now he is banging drums for a subway on Sheppard (since it is the only part of of his subway dream which has a hope... at least until Wednesday) yet has no idea where the money is to come from, flip flopping on a daily basis on whether new taxes should be implemented or not.

I bet he, nor his Conservative friends running the provincial and federal parties, expect subways to be built. They'll try and drum up the public support for them, then when the time comes to build them... oops, no money. We'll just wait till we have it, have to be fiscally responsible after all...

At least the Tea Party and Republicans in the US are upfront about their views on rapid transit. “Now, it seems, Republicans want to turn cities into a part of the culture wars. Now it’s abortion, gay marriage and subways.”
 
Now, Rob Ford says (paraphrasing of course) You don't play ball by Rob Ford's rules, he'll just take the ball home and they'll be no game.

From the Toronto Sun:

Ford vows to scuttle LRTs

By Ian Robertson ,Toronto Sun

No subway expansion, no LRT!

That was Mayor Rob Ford’s vow Sunday — three days before city council is to vote on choosing between building more below-ground public transit or street-level systems.

Predicting a “close” vote Wednesday, Ford said he would prevent Light Rapid Transit above-ground lines if council rejects what he wants — constructing an extension of the Sheppard subway.

But he announced “if we don’t get the subway ... we’re not going to waste people’s money and build an LRT.”

Speaking on his weekly Newstalk 1010 radio show, the civic leader warned that if city council went ahead with LRTs, Scarborough passengers would face “another St. Clair disaster.”

Some of his east-end subway guests on the show, plus the majority of callers, said they would rather stick with streetcars or buses than new LRT lines.

Citing the over-budget, centre-road St. Clair Ave. LRT line, a caller named Norm said “it’s been a complete mess,” with traffic snarls and “plenty of empty stores.”

Subways Are for Everyone (SAFE) guest Li Chiu said Scarborough residents have “been waiting 30 years for subways.”

Chiu said TTC chairman Karen Stintz “declined our invitation” to a 7 p.m. Monday public information meeting at Scarborough Civic Centre.

Ford urged listeners to attend, learn about LRT “misinformation,” and press councillors to back the subway plan.

Ford said “we have $1 billion” to extend Sheppard’s subway system east for two or three stations, adding “we could get the shovel in the ground.”

Once the city shows it can start the long-delayed project, he and Councillor Paul Ainslie, his co-host, predicted investors would help bankroll more subway construction by developing commercial and residential infrastructure along the routes.

A council-appointed expert panel recommended on Friday that city council go ahead with an LRT system.

Former city councillor and talkshow guest Dr. Gordon Chong, said the appointees were deliberately chosen by councillors who wanted light-rail supporters.

“To say it wasn’t pre-ordained is stretching people’s beliefs,” Chong said.

He said last week that other members were blocking the release of a pro-subway report.

“I’m hoping saner minds will prevail” at the vote, Chong said. “Underground with a subway is the cost-effective way for public transit.”
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No comprising from Rob Ford. He is just a bully, it can only be done his way or there will be nothing. I first saw Rob Ford as a no-transit mayor, and it turns out he is. I hope the rest of city council can work around him, and he'll just end up a lame-duck mayor.
 
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I dont see how he can stop council. They voted for above ground LRT east of Larid on Eglinton, LRT on Finch west, they have a majority now on the TTC commission board and we still need to see what happens with Sheppard. So even if sheppard goes ahead with subways,he cannot stop Finch LRT or the LRT on Eglinton. The only way is if the eastern portion of the LRT on Eglinton that is to be above grade does not get built till the underground portion does so come election time Ford can make that an issue. I think the lRT at grade should be built at the same time since the above grade will get built sooner so at least those residents can see the advantages of the LRT and Ford does not hold that card in the next election - trying to bribe those residents as a vote for him means they will get subways
 
So I had an idea today, I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned it, or if it's even possible, but it may be worth some discussion: Ontario Transit Bonds. Would work the same as Canada Savings Bonds, but the money would go specifically to transit infrastructure funding. Maybe make taking money from RRSPs tax free if they're being put into OTBs.

Just a thought.
 
I can't see a scenario whereby the province will want to issue a competing product to what they already offer on the market. A regional transit authority, on the other hand...well, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

AoD
 
gweed123 said:
So I had an idea today, I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned it, or if it's even possible, but it may be worth some discussion: Ontario Transit Bonds. Would work the same as Canada Savings Bonds, but the money would go specifically to transit infrastructure funding. Maybe make taking money from RRSPs tax free if they're being put into OTBs.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...

I would buy some ... even at zero interest, provided that the principal is guaranteed.
 
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