[gweed123]

Wow, amazing work. From the fonts to the lines to the scale, this map is incredible to look at! There are a lot of specific details and decisions you made I want to comment on, but it's pretty overwhelming and hard to nitpick given the size and quality of this thing.

Thank you!

For the major things, it looks like you had some fun with the subway lines, particularly the Sheppard–Spadina–Relief-Line Loop! I also like how you divided heavy rail services into local, express and "Regio", that makes a lot of sense to me.

When you look at the service plan for the Spadina Subway, there are trains that short-turn prior to reaching Vaughan Centre. Rather than short-turning, I think it makes more sense to have them branch off. The core segment of the 4/5 route (Wilson to Don Mills) needs more frequency than the branches do, so I figured 2/3 (peak/base) on the core and 3/6 on the branches would be sufficient.

For heavy rail, yes I think that division makes a lot of sense as well. Not only is it for mapping purposes, but also for the customer expectations in terms of frequencies and span. Metro would be near-subway level service, while Regio would be a lot more like current GO Train service. I also specifically chose those names because, as a Provincial service, the names should be bilingual.

I hate to bring this last bit up but the legend for X10 has the subtext mixed up. I was also going to mention that "Heritage Greene" in Hamilton is spelt without the last "e"; while that's true for the name of the area, the official name for the shopping centre does have that extra "e".

Thank you for finding that! I copied the text and pasted it down the line, and I guess I missed changing that one. As for Heritage Greene, I went by what was on the sign out front. Also, the HSR will be using "Heritage Greene" post-Re-Envision. Metrolinx naming guidelines also suggest using the name of the neighbourhood, and not a specific corporate name.

Slowly digesting this and am amazed at the number of connections at Dundas West/Sherbourne stations. As many as there are at Union. Now I know that's as much a function of the design style chosen for indicating different service types, but still...

Anyone who looks at this and doesn't see the potential for Dundas West/ Sherbourne to become a true second downtown is blind.

I'm assuming you meant Dundas West/Bloor? Yes, that will definitely become a major transit hub, with the potential for significant densification as a result. Hamilton Gateway (Dundurn & King) has a similar grouping, with similar potential.

 

[H4F33Z]

View attachment 242886

There was something said in the Pearson Transit Hub thread about extending the Link Train. This is what I came up with for what the routing and stops could look like.

This would allow the Eglinton Crosstown to continue west to downtown Mississauga, and also take away the need to extend Finch West LRT beyond the GO tracks.

I like the idea of this, It's similar to the AirTrain to JFK.

 

[blacksquirrels]

This one has taken me quite a while, but here's my latest map:

View attachment 242378

Full resolution map available here.

EDIT: Updated to PNG instead of JPG.

Great map. I appreciate the effort and thought put into this. Would love to see a scaled back Toronto centric version without the bus routes. My only critique is the Davisville to St. Clair West spur is a bit unnecessary and I would rather see Line 4 still exist and extended to meet Line 2, but other than that it's pretty much perfect. Well done.

 

[blacksquirrels]

View attachment 242886

There was something said in the Pearson Transit Hub thread about extending the Link Train. This is what I came up with for what the routing and stops could look like.

This would allow the Eglinton Crosstown to continue west to downtown Mississauga, and also take away the need to extend Finch West LRT beyond the GO tracks.

Another great idea.

 

[blaixx]

There was something said in the Pearson Transit Hub thread about extending the Link Train. This is what I came up with for what the routing and stops could look like.

I like this a lot! My first thought was that this would add an extra transfer but then I realized that people would have to transfer from the Pearson Transit Hub to the Link Train anyways to get to the terminals. A design like this would basically give us two connected airport hubs, which I don't think is a bad thing.

Technically this would have to be a replacement for the Link Train, rather than an extension because its current technology would not scale up to this length.

 

[gweed123]

Great map. I appreciate the effort and thought put into this. Would love to see a scaled back Toronto centric version without the bus routes.

Thank you! And that can certainly be done, although with the region moving towards a much more interconnected system, a map focusing on a specific region would leave a lot of those connections out.

My only critique is the Davisville to St. Clair West spur is a bit unnecessary and I would rather see Line 4 still exist and extended to meet Line 2, but other than that it's pretty much perfect. Well done.

My rationale for Line 3 was that with the trains running along the University Line mostly going east or west at Bloor, that that existing travel pattern of Spadina Line passengers bound for the University Line would be disrupted. Line 3 is intended to maintain that travel pattern. If you're coming from St Clair West inwards, your trip pattern doesn't change at all. If you're coming from beyond that, you can get off at St Clair West, wait on the same platform, and catch a Line 3 train.

On the Yonge side, that route provides some extra capacity for downtowners. Right now, trains are full by the time they reach York Mills. The Relief Line will help that somewhat, but I still think in this scenario Line 1E and 1W trains will be full by the time they reach Eglinton. Starting Line 3 at Davisville (I would have liked to have started it at Eglinton, but Davisville is where the 3rd platform is) provides an empty train for people getting on south of Eglinton. I think you'd see a shift in travel patterns, where someone getting on at say Summerhill would rather wait a train or two for a Line 3 train than try to cram themselves onto a Line 1E or 1W train.

 

[blacksquirrels]

Great explanation. So if Line 1 becomes 3 branches in essence would the service be divided evenly amongst them? For example Line 1 runs 36 trains per hour per direction would that mean each branch has 12 trains per hour respectively? I'm just trying to imagine how the service would work and whether or not waiting 4 to 6 minutes at St. Clair West for a particular train makes more sense than transferring at Spadina. I know it's a bit of a jog.

I still think Line 4 (Sheppard) could run an additional branch from Sheppard West to STC eventually. Also what level of service are you envisioning for GO Metro and Regional rail? How many trains per hour for each? Thanks.

 

[gweed123]

Great explanation. So if Line 1 becomes 3 branches in essence would the service be divided evenly amongst them? For example Line 1 runs 36 trains per hour per direction would that mean each branch has 12 trains per hour respectively? I'm just trying to imagine how the service would work and whether or not waiting 4 to 6 minutes at St. Clair West for a particular train makes more sense than transferring at Spadina. I know it's a bit of a jog.

That's what I was thinking, yeah. Based on typical walking times between the Spadina and Bloor platforms at Spadina Station, unless you literally just missed the 3 Train, it would be faster to wait on the platform you're already on than to make the transfer (unless you just want the exercise). Choice isn't a bad thing though. That type of "this isn't my train, gotta wait for the next one" is pretty common in places like NYC.

I still think Line 4 (Sheppard) could run an additional branch from Sheppard West to STC eventually. Also what level of service are you envisioning for GO Metro and Regional rail? How many trains per hour for each? Thanks.

My rationale for using LRT technology for that corridor was that the existing SRT guideway into STC could be re-used, and that it could run in-median between Victoria Park and Kennedy. East of STC, it would use the SRT extension alignment and plans.

Even if it was subway though, I think the dominant pattern along Sheppard East (from Kennedy to Victoria Park) would be west on Sheppard, then south on Line 4 into downtown. If that's the case, subway vs LRT doesn't make much of a difference, because it would require a transfer either way. At least with LRT though, there's a rationale for extending it east of STC. A subway would almost certainly terminate there. That would leave places like Centennial College hanging.

 

[blacksquirrels]

Even if it was subway though, I think the dominant pattern along Sheppard East (from Kennedy to Victoria Park) would be west on Sheppard, then south on Line 4 into downtown. If that's the case, subway vs LRT doesn't make much of a difference, because it would require a transfer either way. At least with LRT though, there's a rationale for extending it east of STC. A subway would almost certainly terminate there. That would leave places like Centennial College hanging.

Then it might make more sense for Line 5 in your map to diverge towards STC as opposed to Richmond Hill since Line 1 will head there eventually anyway.

 

[gweed123]

Then it might make more sense for Line 5 in your map to diverge towards STC as opposed to Richmond Hill since Line 1 will head there eventually anyway.

That may be a good option. My personal view is that the Yonge Line shouldn't be extended to Richmond Hill though. If you truly want to relieve the Yonge Line, you need to get York Region riders away from it. There is enough density along the Yonge Line within Toronto itself to pack it to the brim, so it's not like we need YR riders in order to make the line viable.

By sending Line 5 up to RHC instead of Line 1, you're still providing a route downtown, but using one that relieves the Yonge Line instead of making things worse. By using the rail corridor, it also significantly reduces construction costs to get it there.

It should also be noted that it's 17 stops from RHC to Yonge & Queen via Line 5, vs what would be 19 stops for Line 1 (if it were to be extended). And if someone

 

[blacksquirrels]

That may be a good option. My personal view is that the Yonge Line shouldn't be extended to Richmond Hill though. If you truly want to relieve the Yonge Line, you need to get York Region riders away from it. There is enough density along the Yonge Line within Toronto itself to pack it to the brim, so it's not like we need YR riders in order to make the line viable.

By sending Line 5 up to RHC instead of Line 1, you're still providing a route downtown, but using one that relieves the Yonge Line instead of making things worse. By using the rail corridor, it also significantly reduces construction costs to get it there.

It should also be noted that it's 17 stops from RHC to Yonge & Queen via Line 5, vs what would be 19 stops for Line 1 (if it were to be extended). And if someone

I agree, but it seems like it eventually will be extended to Richmond Hill regardless. In an ideal world they would have quad tracked the Yonge Line when it was originally built. The TTC subway lines (with the exception of Sheppard) are already longer than most systems should allow. Probably due to fact that it's much easier to extend an existing line than it is to build a new one, combined with the fact that the suburbs have yielded more influence over major infrastructure decisions in recent decades. For example Line 1 would've never been extended to York University without also extending to Vaughn. Line 4 would've never been built. Extending Line 1 to Richmond Hill and extending Line 2 to STC wouldn't be viable either. Politicians use these projects to buy votes. Simple as that. If the TTC operated exclusively in the Old City of Toronto it would run at a profit or wouldn't require any subsidies at all. Apparently the core has enough subways though.

 

[north-of-anything]

If you're already running multiple services along the Yonge Line, though, could you not run one of the Yonge Lines up to Steeles, and the other as an express service between Eglinton and Steeles that continues locally to Richmond Hill?

 

[gweed123]

I agree, but it seems like it eventually will be extended to Richmond Hill regardless. In an ideal world they would have quad tracked the Yonge Line when it was originally built. The TTC subway lines (with the exception of Sheppard) are already longer than most systems should allow. Probably due to fact that it's much easier to extend an existing line than it is to build a new one, combined with the fact that the suburbs have yielded more influence over major infrastructure decisions in recent decades. For example Line 1 would've never been extended to York University without also extending to Vaughn. Line 4 would've never been built. Extending Line 1 to Richmond Hill and extending Line 2 to STC wouldn't be viable either. Politicians use these projects to buy votes. Simple as that. If the TTC operated exclusively in the Old City of Toronto it would run at a profit or wouldn't require any subsidies at all. Apparently the core has enough subways though.

In the long term yes, it likely will be extended to RHC (or beyond). But for the timeframe of this map (~2041), I think bringing Line 5 up there first is the better bet.

If you're already running multiple services along the Yonge Line, though, could you not run one of the Yonge Lines up to Steeles, and the other as an express service between Eglinton and Steeles that continues locally to Richmond Hill?

That would be difficult to do given the two-track configuration of the Yonge Line. At the frequencies the line is running it, you would basically need a 4-tracked subway between Steeles and Eglinton.

Under my scenario yes, you are running multiple services on the Yonge Line, but they're using the same stop pattern. Heading southbound, they effectively act as one line. Heading northbound (which is actually southbound from St George/Bay), the trains would hold at Upper St George and Lower Bay to get proper headways.

 

[sche]

Also, why end Line 3 at Davisville and St Clair West? Yonge could do with the extra capacity, and turning trains around at St. Clair West doesn’t seem ideal unless we do some major work on the station.

 

[north-of-anything]

A bit of a different scale from what I usually do, but I feel like there's a bus route needed right here to close a bit of a gap in the TTC network.

It starts in the east at Laird Station to bring people off of the Crosstown and to serve the RioCan Centre. It then turns onto Rumsey Road, with a stop at Broadway, before entering the Toronto Rehab Complex. It hits the Rumsey Centre, Holland Bloorview, and the CNIB before heading straight to the Sunnybrook Hospital. (This section overlaps with Community Bus 407, which does not operate on Fridays and weekends.) The bus then serves the entirety of Blythwood Road, skips past Yonge without stopping (unless an infill station is built in the area), and proceeds down Glencairn. At Glencairn Station, the service will either reverse direction or turn onto Marlee and end at Lawrence West Station.

It's not really a high density route, or one that should necessarily be redeveloped, but I imagine most people getting on or off the bus east of Yonge and at Glencairn Station.