[W. K. Lis]

At the Wednesday, November 21, 2012 Commission meeting, they will be discussing the 2013 BUDGET UPDATE AND FARE INCREASE CONFIRMATION. Download the PDF from this link.

One of the recommendations is for:

confirm the previous approval-in-principle for a 5-cent increase, effective January 1, 2013, in the price of a single adult token and a proportionate increase in all other fares, excluding cash fares

The adult fare breakdown could be as follows:

2013 FARE SCHEDULE - $0.05 INCREASE
Adult - Cash$3.00 to $3.00
Token $2.60 to $2.65
PRESTO $2.60 to $2.65
Weekly Pass $37.50 to $38.50
Regular Metropass $126.00 to $128.50

See the PDF for the full breakdown.

 

[car4041]

Thread title should be changed from 2012 to 2013.

 

[CDL.TO]

Thread title should be changed from 2012 to 2013.

Right.

 

[k10ery]

These dummies are going to set the token price so that you have to buy 20 tokens before the cost works out to a round figure in dollars (i.e. an integer). Obviously $2.67 is a much better price than $2.65, for everybody but the ticket collectors union.

 

[rbt]

Obviously $2.67 is a much better price than $2.65, for everybody but the ticket collectors union.

How's that? I don't see the obviousness of it.

 

[LNahid2000]

How's that? I don't see the obviousness of it.

3 tokens for $8, 6 tokens for $16, and so on.

 

[Jonny5]

3 tokens for $8, 6 tokens for $16, and so on.

You are forgetting that pennies will be eliminated in January 2013. By law, prices have to be rounded to 0.05 increments.

 

[LNahid2000]

You are forgetting that pennies will be eliminated in January 2013. By law, prices have to be rounded to 0.05 increments.

That is incorrect. An invoice total would be rounded to a 5 cent increment, but individual prices can stay as is.


Rounding should only be used on the final bill of sale after the calculation of Goods and Services Tax (GST)/Harmonized Sales Tax (HST), where applicable.

Non-cash payments such as cheques, credit and debit cards will continue to be settled to the cent.

http://www.budget.gc.ca/2012/themes/theme2-fs-fi-3-eng.html

 

[nfitz]

That is incorrect. An invoice total would be rounded to a 5 cent increment, but individual prices can stay as is.


Rounding should only be used on the final bill of sale after the calculation of Goods and Services Tax (GST)/Harmonized Sales Tax (HST), where applicable.

Non-cash payments such as cheques, credit and debit cards will continue to be settled to the cent.

http://www.budget.gc.ca/2012/themes/theme2-fs-fi-3-eng.html

If payment with cheques, credit, and debit will still be settled to the cent, then the invoice total won't be rounded to a 5-cent increment. Only the payment would be rounded (which isn't unusual in some stores already).

Though as far as I understand it, though they've stopped minting the penny already, and will stop distributing it early in 2013, it will remain legal tender, and one will be free to use it indefinitely. I figure I've got a 50-year supply stashed away ... if anyone store is going to be annoying and present invoices that end in a 0.03 and expect me to pay 0.05, I'm going to be giving them the 3 cents well into my old age.

The problem can be eliminated by simply including GST/HST in the product price instead of adding it on at the end. This has always been an option but very few do it. But if you look at other countries that implemented GST such as New Zealand, most stores include the GST in the price, making the final prices simpler.

 

[Wrenkin]

If payment with cheques, credit, and debit will still be settled to the cent, then the invoice total won't be rounded to a 5-cent increment. Only the payment would be rounded (which isn't unusual in some stores already).

Though as far as I understand it, though they've stopped minting the penny already, and will stop distributing it early in 2013, it will remain legal tender, and one will be free to use it indefinitely. I figure I've got a 50-year supply stashed away ... if anyone store is going to be annoying and present invoices that end in a 0.03 and expect me to pay 0.05, I'm going to be giving them the 3 cents well into my old age.

The problem can be eliminated by simply including GST/HST in the product price instead of adding it on at the end. This has always been an option but very few do it. But if you look at other countries that implemented GST such as New Zealand, most stores include the GST in the price, making the final prices simpler.

That's true, but HST varies by province, making national advertisements tricky. Otherwise, it's a vastly superior system, especially when purchasing things with change.

 

[nfitz]

That's true, but HST varies by province, making national advertisements tricky.

That's a good point. Though it doesn't tend to be the big chains where this is an issue, and you typically don't use cash. But the small purchases at the corner store, or the pizza place across the street, where I grab a slice, and end up paying $3.99 once they put in the HST... and they look annoyed at you when you give them 99¢ in change (though makes me happy to loose all that change!)

I suppose the big fast food chains would be a challenge ... but I seldom partake. And I expect many have local pricing variations anyway.

 

[k10ery]

That's true, but HST varies by province, making national advertisements tricky.

They always say that, but even now whenever I want to get online prices from Home Depot or Future Shop etc., they ask me for my postal code. So I don't think they do much national pricing.

I thought the real reason was retailers want to reserve the right keep quoting us a lowball price, then gouging us for 13% more when we get to the cash register.

 

[Electrify]

Being only a 5 cent hike, it is the lowest one in recent memory. And while higher levels of government are also to blame, if you look at the history annual or semi-annual fare hikes have been a common thing for the TTC for several decades (http://www.transitstop.net/Stats/ttc_fares_from_1973_to_present.htm), including those years when the province helped to cover the costs. Meanwhile a monthly pass has always been far beyond the cost of tokens, requiring at least 52 rides in 1980 before it pays for itself and was $10 more expensive than Montreal's (http://torontoist.com/2012/02/historicist-test-drive-a-metropass/ and no, I'm not going to hunt down what Montreal's fare ratio to pass was in 1980, but if you can find this info feel free to post it).

What frustrates me most about this fare hike is that cash fares will remain frozen at $3. This category will have been frozen for 3 years, and will most likely be another year before being increased. This means that tokens are becoming a progressively less of a deal when compared to cash, thus it is rewarding infrequent riders while frequent riders cover their share.

 

[Long Island Mike]

The creation of the TTC Metropass...and comparing it to NYC Transit and Metrocard...

Being only a 5 cent hike, it is the lowest one in recent memory. And while higher levels of government are also to blame, if you look at the history annual or semi-annual fare hikes have been a common thing for the TTC for several decades (http://www.transitstop.net/Stats/ttc_fares_from_1973_to_present.htm), including those years when the province helped to cover the costs. Meanwhile a monthly pass has always been far beyond the cost of tokens, requiring at least 52 rides in 1980 before it pays for itself and was $10 more expensive than Montreal's (http://torontoist.com/2012/02/historicist-test-drive-a-metropass/ and no, I'm not going to hunt down what Montreal's fare ratio to pass was in 1980, but if you can find this info feel free to post it).

What frustrates me most about this fare hike is that cash fares will remain frozen at $3. This category will have been frozen for 3 years, and will most likely be another year before being increased. This means that tokens are becoming a progressively less of a deal when compared to cash, thus it is rewarding infrequent riders while frequent riders cover their share.

Electrify: Interesting link from Torontoist about the creation of the TTC Metropass back in the early 1980s...

I recall that I went to Sherbourne Station myself and got my picture taken for $1.50 myself but it was not worth my while
to purchase a monthly Metropass back on my 80s visits to Toronto...A Weekly pass would have been quite useful on some
of my visits back then...Any idea when the TTC introduced the Weekly pass? Another version I recall is the TTC/GO Twinpass
which was good for anyone who commuted using routes of both systems...

I found it interesting that it was indeed 1980 when the TTC introduced an incentive pass good for unlimited riding and in
comparison NYC did not offer any incentives to riders until the Metrocard was introduced during the 1990s...The big changes
were the offer of free transfers between Subways and Buses for the first time-those riders formerly paid separate fares for
each mode and the offer of Unlimited flat fare 7 and 30 day Metrocards in 1997-98...

As some know NYC Transit used tokens for fare for exactly 50 years 1953-2003 and during most of those years that was
the exclusive fare to ride the NYC Subways...there were some discounts for Seniors and other incentives like the special
Sunday half fare which ran from late 1975 until early 1980...but for the most part riders bought tokens which were always
at a fixed price each without any kind of quantity discount...

The Metrocard and its incentives and advantages ultimately ended the Token's reign and the MTA found that it was actually
cheaper to sell single-ride paper Metrocards then to keep the token to represent a single ride even though tokens can be
re-used indefinitely...It was all the handling and accounting that would accompany them that was their problem...
Token riders was not able to get and use transfers between modes like Metrocards offered...

The last NYC Transit service to use tokens was the Roosevelt Island Tramway and once the MTA got the MVMs,
turnstiles and card readers installed the use of tokens ended there on March 1,2004...

In closing these incentive passes have been quite successful and I feel that their flexibility is the key to their longevity...
For example Nassau County's NICE Bus (formerly LI Bus) and Westchester County's Bee Line System use the MTA
Metrocard as their primary fare payment system...I understand that Toronto area systems offer similar incentives...

LI MIKE

 

[Electrify]

Electrify: Interesting link from Torontoist about the creation of the TTC Metropass back in the early 1980s...

I recall that I went to Sherbourne Station myself and got my picture taken for $1.50 myself but it was not worth my while
to purchase a monthly Metropass back on my 80s visits to Toronto...A Weekly pass would have been quite useful on some
of my visits back then...Any idea when the TTC introduced the Weekly pass? Another version I recall is the TTC/GO Twinpass
which was good for anyone who commuted using routes of both systems...

I found it interesting that it was indeed 1980 when the TTC introduced an incentive pass good for unlimited riding and in
comparison NYC did not offer any incentives to riders until the Metrocard was introduced during the 1990s...The big changes
were the offer of free transfers between Subways and Buses for the first time-those riders formerly paid separate fares for
each mode and the offer of Unlimited flat fare 7 and 30 day Metrocards in 1997-98...

As some know NYC Transit used tokens for fare for exactly 50 years 1953-2003 and during most of those years that was
the exclusive fare to ride the NYC Subways...there were some discounts for Seniors and other incentives like the special
Sunday half fare which ran from late 1975 until early 1980...but for the most part riders bought tokens which were always
at a fixed price each without any kind of quantity discount...

The Metrocard and its incentives and advantages ultimately ended the Token's reign and the MTA found that it was actually
cheaper to sell single-ride paper Metrocards then to keep the token to represent a single ride even though tokens can be
re-used indefinitely...It was all the handling and accounting that would accompany them that was their problem...
Token riders was not able to get and use transfers between modes like Metrocards offered...

The last NYC Transit service to use tokens was the Roosevelt Island Tramway and once the MTA got the MVMs,
turnstiles and card readers installed the use of tokens ended there on March 1,2004...

In closing these incentive passes have been quite successful and I feel that their flexibility is the key to their longevity...
For example Nassau County's NICE Bus (formerly LI Bus) and Westchester County's Bee Line System use the MTA
Metrocard as their primary fare payment system...I understand that Toronto area systems offer similar incentives...

LI MIKE

Not sure of the exact year that weekly passes were introduced, but it was relatively recently during the Miller era, so sometime in the mid-2000s. This doesn't include the GTA weekly pass, which offers unlimited travel on the TTC, Mississauga, Brampton, and York Region Transit systems (no GO, Durham, or Oakville though) which I am not too sure when it was introduced.

Keep in mind that the TTC's weekly pass is an even bigger ripoff than its monthly pass. You have to take it 15 times in a single week before it begins to pay for itself. Perhaps for a visiting tourist who will spend most of his time downtown it may work out to be beneficial, otherwise tokens make more sense.

Hard to believe the MTA didn't have a monthly pass for so long though. About a year ago I visited my brother in New York City and because I was there for only a few days I bought a multi-ride Metrocard. Their subway was so efficient though, I easily went through the 10 rides and had to put at least another 10 on, thus making it cheaper to get an unlimited pass. When I visited him this year, I did not make the same mistake.