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Northern Light

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Depends if they can get the developers of Sherway/Cloverdale Mall to stump up some cash.

Combined with a very modest extension of the line to serve the (long proposed) Obico Western Subway Yard - I could see this happening, esp. if built as elevated.
No need for super large bus terminal either - given the new regional one at Kipling.

I personally would prefer an extension just to Cloverdale - shorter distance and easier to build (no need to cross Highway 427).

An extension to Cloverdale has an excellent case.

That said, the Sherway Garden site as-is, is a very large employer; redevelopment here will make it a major population node as well; there's also a hospital across the street (more or less), which is set to get considerably larger in the years ahead.

So the case for Sherway is not without merit.

I think I would argue here for a continuous build extension to Sherway.

ie. build to Cloverdale, open Cloverdale then just keep going. This is a way to lower the incremental cost of construction and pick up additional riders long before the entire extension is complete.

In terms of compelling business case vs other extensions/investments; I would argue it clearly ranks behind extending Line 5 (Egilinton) into Pearson, but after that......its case relative to other subway projects in the pipeline isn't uncompetitive.

I would, however, rank it below upgrading Milton GO to 2-way, all-day, 30M or better service.
 

crs1026

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Sherway is going to grow as a ridership center, but I’m not sure that justifies bending Line 2 - which is a backbone route - southwards.

The case for an extension to Cloverdale is very strong, but to go further south ? There is so much ridership coming across the border from Mississauga…and the catchment for that ridership extends north to about Rathburn. I would preserve a more northern route. Getting bus and auto traffic off Bloor and Dundas streets (the parking lots at Kipling are huge) won’t happen if Line 2 goes southwards.

Unless someone has data showing huge density eventually at Sherway, I would build an LRT westwards along the Queensway from wherever the Ontario Line ends up, and possibly south to a hub at Long Branch. Possibly On Kipling as well. It’s time for Etobicoke to invest in cheaper LRT, the vanity subway movement should end with Eglinton West.

We need to come to terms with how long a subway ought to be. If we only think incrementally, we will keep pushing Line 2 through Peel and Halton all the way to Milton…. and Line 1 all the way north to Aurora and Barrie ! We need to determine where the next longstanding terminal point will be, otherwise these lines will compete with the regional GO lines instead of integrating with them. I can see the case for taking Line 2 to Mississauga City Center, but not necessarily any further. Alternatively, while Sherway may be an area to be served, it certainly isn’t a potential terminal point. Going there only makes sense if the line is on the way to someplace else.

- Paul
 
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ericmacm

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I think that Metrolinx should go whole hog and just extend it to MCC in one go, to connect with the Hurontario LRT so it isn't isolated from the rest of the network. It'll be more costly than just going to Sherway, but it'll be a major ridership node bigger than either Sherway or Cloverdale.

The big challenge here is not duplicating service provided by either the Mississauga Transitway, Dundas BRT, Hurontario LRT, or Milton Line. From an ease of alignment perspective, going through Cloverdale makes more sense since it's closer to Kipling, but it'll also directly be on the east end of the Dundas BRT so there would be a duplication there. From a ridership perspective, going through Sherway makes more sense given the fact that it's a bigger employment node (incl the hospital), will see more residential density, and the developers are already taking line alignment protection into account. I think in this case, Sherway naturally makes the most sense.

Beyond Sherway is the most difficult part because the line would have to both not duplicate the Milton Line or the Hurontario LRT but still reach MCC.
 

afransen

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I can see the case for taking Line 2 to Mississauga City Center, but not necessarily any further.
I can't. What purpose would it serve? Upgrade Milton line (whatever it costs to get it done), and people can ride from MCC to Kipling in far less time.
 

afransen

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Milton line doesn't hit Square One unless you dig a huge ass tunnel to get there.
Huge ass tunnel? We're talking about extending Line 2 to MCC. A few km of tunnel vs 12 from Kipling. Upgrading Milton Line would be much more useful to Mississauga than Line 2 extension.
 

dullturtle06

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Huge ass tunnel? We're talking about extending Line 2 to MCC. A few km of tunnel vs 12 from Kipling. Upgrading Milton Line would be much more useful to Mississauga than Line 2 extension.
agree, and with Toronto subway construction prices 12 km of subway would be around 8 billion. so rather put that money into all day 2 way Milton go with MCC center tunnel.
 

Northern Light

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Without advocating for or against, but to contribute here, I mapped out what I believe an MCC tunnel for the Milton GO line would look like in terms of placement and distance.

I would defer to those w/greater expertise than I, in saying I may not have it quite right.

I used only the simple assumptions that:

It must start and end at the existing Milton GO Line (assuming through service)
You want it as straight as possible, with gentle curves.

1652631453436.png


In the route layout above, I have bypassed Erindale station, one could choose to include that, but it either means a more southerly alignment (right along Burnamthorpe) , or a significant curve to the south at the western extent of the tunnel.
 

afransen

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Without advocating for or against, but to contribute here, I mapped out what I believe an MCC tunnel for the Milton GO line would look like in terms of placement and distance.

I would defer to those w/greater expertise than I, in saying I may not have it quite right.

I used only the simple assumptions that:

It must start and end at the existing Milton GO Line (assuming through service)
You want it as straight as possible, with gentle curves.

View attachment 400446

In the route layout above, I have bypassed Erindale station, one could choose to include that, but it either means a more southerly alignment (right along Burnamthorpe) , or a significant curve to the south at the western extent of the tunnel.
My two cents:
- I don't think it needs to be a tunnel. Roads in Mississauga are wide and an elevated alignment could be used. This would necessitate converting Milton Line to lighter trains, like single level EMUs or even just light metro.
- Burnhamthorpe is particularly wide and was intended for transit to run down it at some point.

That said, I would retain a station at Cooksville, go up Confederation to Burnhamthorpe, and run down Burnhamthorpe to Erindale GO and resume in the Rail ROW. The intersection of Confederation and Burnhamthorpe would be tight with M City. But the station could be on the east side of Confederation south of Burnhamthorpe to maximize the curve radius. If that is too tight, I would suggest departing from the rail ROW east of Hurontario, up to Burnhamthorpe around Robert Speck.
 

crs1026

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^I haven’t seen much detail in terms of either residential or employment numbers for the planned redevelopment at Sherway, but one can’t justify a heavy rail line to a mall. Even with new development, won’t an LRT or two suffice?

I would be perfectly happy with stopping at Cloverdale altogether - it’s a much more logical place for a hub than Kipling. (Maybe the only recently opened terminal at Kipling could be converted to the world’s most expensive farmer’s market.)

While it’s not the plan (yet), Dundas is the only east west street in east Mississauga that can handle transit oriented density. If we are saying we want Line 2 to extend further, shoudn’t we scrap the BRT, rezone Dundas to some higher TOD value, and run the subway there?

Above all, we should have the whole Transit City style subway vs LRT debate all over again, with a new territory but the same basic theme…. why tunnel at all when we can build far more kms of surface (or elevated) LRT for the same price? Is density in Mississauga reaching the levels where we really need subways? Can an LRT to Sherway handle whatever ridership we project?

The idea of converting the Milton Line to something else and making a diversion is really interesting. I wonder how well it could meet the needs of those commuting from Lisgar or Milton…. that’s a long ride.

- Paul
 

afransen

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The idea of converting the Milton Line to something else and making a diversion is really interesting. I wonder how well it could meet the needs of those commuting from Lisgar or Milton…. that’s a long ride.
GO expansion with electrification, is talking about raising average speeds to 60 kph. Milton Line has pretty wide stop spacings, including essentially running express from Kipling, so perhaps even higher average speed would be possible, or at least many more infill stations could be added while maintaining current average speed (around 60 kph now). I could imagine an express service (with fare integration) from Kipling to Union that only took 10 -12 minutes (down from 20 currently) being pretty popular.
 

ARG1

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^I haven’t seen much detail in terms of either residential or employment numbers for the planned redevelopment at Sherway, but one can’t justify a heavy rail line to a mall. Even with new development, won’t an LRT or two suffice?
I think it depends on the alignment. Obviously if we're tunneling the whole thing, then no that makes no sense, but if we just extend Line 2 along the Milton corridor and just put a station north of the Mall, it should be fine I think.
While it’s not the plan (yet), Dundas is the only east west street in east Mississauga that can handle transit oriented density. If we are saying we want Line 2 to extend further, shoudn’t we scrap the BRT, rezone Dundas to some higher TOD value, and run the subway there?
This is where the question of timing comes in. In theory the concepts shouldn't be mutually exclusive, if we build the BRT cheaply, then it can absolutely be justified as an interim solution to improve transit along the corridor until we can fund HRT there - plus get some development going in the corridor, and finally replace the BRT with maybe an El (Dundas should be wide enough to support one post BRT). Of course other minds could argue that we can just get the development funds and just go full steam ahead and build HRT on Dundas right off the bat.
Above all, we should have the whole Transit City style subway vs LRT debate all over again, with a new territory but the same basic theme…. why tunnel at all when we can build far more kms of surface (or elevated) LRT for the same price? Is density in Mississauga reaching the levels where we really need subways? Can an LRT to Sherway handle whatever ridership we project?
First I'd rather remove the notion that subways like Line 2 have to be underground. We can easily run a theoretical westward extension Line 2 on elevated viaducts in the median of Dundas, so for the purposes of arguing for subways, I'm going to assume that we're arguing for NY/Chicago style Els and not deep tunnels.

Once again the question of HRT vs LRT in these areas has little to do with capacity but to do with speed and minimizing redundant transfers. Now a good argument could be made for the Dundas corridor that the Milton Line is right there to provide that higher speed service and as such an LRT on Dundas could work. However...
The idea of converting the Milton Line to something else and making a diversion is really interesting. I wonder how well it could meet the needs of those commuting from Lisgar or Milton…. that’s a long ride.
An obvious goal present here would be to try and maintain the Milton Line as an express service that has long distances between stops. What this could mean in practice is we could extend Line 2 and have it act as sort of a Mississauga Local service that can divert to areas like MCC. If you are commuting from far out communities like Milton and Lisgar, the Milton Line is the obvious service for you, however a theoretical Dundas El/HRT along the Milton corridor could function as a more local higher speed service that replaces theoretical Milton Line infill stations.
 

Deadpool X

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My two cents:
- I don't think it needs to be a tunnel. Roads in Mississauga are wide and an elevated alignment could be used. This would necessitate converting Milton Line to lighter trains, like single level EMUs or even just light metro.
- Burnhamthorpe is particularly wide and was intended for transit to run down it at some point.

That said, I would retain a station at Cooksville, go up Confederation to Burnhamthorpe, and run down Burnhamthorpe to Erindale GO and resume in the Rail ROW. The intersection of Confederation and Burnhamthorpe would be tight with M City. But the station could be on the east side of Confederation south of Burnhamthorpe to maximize the curve radius. If that is too tight, I would suggest departing from the rail ROW east of Hurontario, up to Burnhamthorpe around Robert Speck.
Your suggested route would miss Square One by a good distance. Because of turning radius requirements, it is unlikely the tunnel will go north of Burhamthorpe. Also, it's not a good idea to put a station on a tight curve because you will have huge platform gaps that may need big platform extenders. Or else the station will be place before or after the curve and will be far from Square One in either case.

Northern Light's route has potential to have the station right besides Square One, although his route will go under a lot of homes and that's hard to sell if we go by Yonge subway extension's experience.
 

jys

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Why is there a(n almost) default assumption that an extension of Line 2 should go to Mississauga City Center? Sure it's got some tall buildings, but as we know, height != density. With the upcoming plans for densification along Dundas, it'll become a linear urban corridor (where public transit performs best). More importantly, MCC is already well served by HuLRT, and riders travelling from MCC to Kipling can simply take the LRT down to Cooksville GO and transfer to a GO Train.
 

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