[MisterF]

Someone wasn't happy about the lack of direction signage at Spadina station (taken Saturday Oct 5th)

View attachment 602737

People in Toronto are unreasonably attached to cardinal directions on subway lines. But the TTC is right to (mostly) phase them out. They might have been okay in the days of two subway lines but they just don't make sense on complex systems. Knowing the cardinal direction is all but useless when navigating a big city with a dozen lines. Navigating by terminal station instead is much easier if you're in a part of the system you're not familiar with. That will increasingly apply to Toronto as more lines are added and as GO lines start to be thought of in similar terms as the subway.

Torontonians will fight these changes of course. This is a city where people still refer to subway lines as "the north-south line" and "the east-west line".

 

[T3G]

People in Toronto are unreasonably attached to cardinal directions on subway lines. But the TTC is right to (mostly) phase them out. They might have been okay in the days of two subway lines but they just don't make sense on complex systems. Knowing the cardinal direction is all but useless when navigating a big city with a dozen lines. Navigating by terminal station instead is much easier if you're in a part of the system you're not familiar with. That will increasingly apply to Toronto as more lines are added and as GO lines start to be thought of in similar terms as the subway.

Torontonians will fight these changes of course. This is a city where people still refer to subway lines as "the north-south line" and "the east-west line".

You omitted a rather significant boilerplate on your post: "...in my opinion."

Because that's all this post is, your opinion that cardinal directions are useless and that navigating by terminal station is easier. That may be the case for you, and you are entitled to feel that way, but it is certainly not the case for me, and I'm not sure why we are limiting ourselves in the types of information that we choose to present.

Why can't we have both? Why are we so opposed to providing multiple forms of navigational information for people who view the world differently?

I can assure you that when I travel to a new city and use a rapid transit system, I'm always keeping a mental image in my head of the layout of the city and thinking of the direction that it is that I want to go in. Seeing the labels for some far flung terminal somewhere on the outskirts of town is not useful information to me.

 

[MisterF]

You omitted a rather significant boilerplate on your post: "...in my opinion."

Because that's all this post is, your opinion that cardinal directions are useless and that navigating by terminal station is easier. That may be the case for you, and you are entitled to feel that way, but it is certainly not the case for me, and I'm not sure why we are limiting ourselves in the types of information that we choose to present.

Why can't we have both? Why are we so opposed to providing multiple forms of navigational information for people who view the world differently?

I can assure you that when I travel to a new city and use a rapid transit system, I'm always keeping a mental image in my head of the layout of the city and thinking of the direction that it is that I want to go in. Seeing the labels for some far flung terminal somewhere on the outskirts of town is not useful information to me.

The vast majority of posts here are opinions. Should every one start with "in my opinion"?

Looking for cardinal directions is an approach that falls apart when you don't know which direction is north or when a line doesn't predominantly follow a single direction. A terminal station, no matter how far flung it is, gives clear and unambiguous guidance for which way to go. Sure, having both might add some clarity to certain lines that are straight and don't go in different directions. But on others it just adds confusion. The Ontario Line is a perfect example. Or Union Station on Line 1, where your options are to go north or north. It's much clearer to just put the terminal stations at that point, the "north" is pointless at best.

 

[Dan416]

The vast majority of posts here are opinions. Should every one start with "in my opinion"?

Looking for cardinal directions is an approach that falls apart when you don't know which direction is north or when a line doesn't predominantly follow a single direction. A terminal station, no matter how far flung it is, gives clear and unambiguous guidance for which way to go. Sure, having both might add some clarity to certain lines that are straight and don't go in different directions. But on others it just adds confusion. The Ontario Line is a perfect example. Or Union Station on Line 1, where your options are to go north or north. It's much clearer to just put the terminal stations at that point, the "north" is pointless at best.

For simplicity maybe they should split Line 1 so that it more logically labelled on the east side as toward Finch and toward Union, and on the west side as toward Vaughan and toward Union. For the amount of people who are actually going toward Union, the signage isn't that great. Sometimes you see Vaughan (via Union) or something along those lines from what I recall. But the vast majority of riders are either getting on or getting off at Union, and not going around the U.

 

[T3G]

Looking for cardinal directions is an approach that falls apart when you don't know which direction is north or when a line doesn't predominantly follow a single direction

If you don't know which direction is north, that signage is not for you. Again, I'm not sure why it has to be taken away just because you personally have no use for it? Should we cancel the terminal station labels because I have no use for them?

As for following a single direction, with the sole exception of the YUS, every line still runs in a specific direction. You don't need to account for every squiggle in the street layout to specify that a line is travelling in a generally eastward direction. Failing that, northeast/southwest/etc is still a concept, for services like the Ontario line.

 

[lenaitch]

I'll stay out of the fray only to say there is a non-insignificant part of the population who have no clue about cardinal directions when it comes to navigation or wayfinding (I'm married to one). There are also people who believe that (e.g.) north is the direction they are facing at the moment. I imagine being underground would only exacerbate that.

Maybe directions should be included, but I think the concept people are searching for is 'nominal' direction. A route is still 'westbound' even though it might take the scenic route.

 

[ShonTron]

I’m in favour of the TTC phasing out cardinal directions as well, but I would like to see “Via Union” in the inbound directions of Line 1, in smaller font than Finch/Vaughan.

Otherwise, there’s no problem. Other systems typically use “outbound/inbound” or station terminal names. New York has the interesting (Downtown/Uptown/Brooklyn bound/Queens bound) directions but it works really well for the system they have and doesn’t rely on cardinal directions.

 

[T3G]

If you are new to NYC and unfamiliar with its geography, I doubt the direction of uptown/downtown (or inbound/outbound) is something you'd be any more familiar with than north/south. All 3 are examples of something you'd need to be familiar with a map of the city to understand.

Why phase it out? It can't be an economy measure, the signs would be trivially smaller than they are if they show the cardinal directions. Let the people who know their Cardinal directions use that, and let the people who know their terminal stations use that, too.

 

[PL1]

If you are new to NYC and unfamiliar with its geography, I doubt the direction of uptown/downtown (or inbound/outbound) is something you'd be any more familiar with than north/south. All 3 are examples of something you'd need to be familiar with a map of the city to understand.

Why phase it out? It can't be an economy measure, the signs would be trivially smaller than they are if they show the cardinal directions. Let the people who know their Cardinal directions use that, and let the people who know their terminal stations use that, too.

Yeah, I don't mind cardinal directions. Certainly when I've been in Boston "Inbound/Outbound" means nothing to me and I've looked at terminal stations for directions. I realize there's limited space on destination signs, but many should be able to scroll a longer phrase. The wayfinding does need to work for visitors to the city.

How to handle a line like Line 1 where NB and SB change? Not sure. Maybe "Line 1 SB via Union to Vaughan" until the train passes Union, then change the sign to "Line 1 NB to Vaughan", and leave the cardinal directions out at Union? Seems more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[T3G]

Yeah, I don't mind cardinal directions. Certainly when I've been in Boston "Inbound/Outbound" means nothing to me and I've looked at terminal stations for directions. I realize there's limited space on destination signs, but many should be able to scroll a longer phrase. The wayfinding does need to work for visitors to the city.

How to handle a line like Line 1 where NB and SB change? Not sure. Maybe "Line 1 SB via Union to Vaughan" until the train passes Union, then change the sign to "Line 1 NB to Vaughan", and leave the cardinal directions out at Union? Seems more complicated than it needs to be.

Line 1 is a freak case. I'm not really sure what the answer is, honestly... having two platforms at Union both labelled as northbound is hardly a solution, but if I'm a visitor to the city I do not think very much that merely seeing Finch and Vaughan would help me either. It also doesn't help that the University side runs under a million different streets, so it's not as clear cut as showing the eastern half of the line to be along Yonge. It's a weird one.

For the rest of the lines, have both. Mind you, I'm not advocating for including the cardinal directions on the destination signs, just the direction labels in the stations. Once you see that you need, for example, eastbound to Ontario Science Centre written on the platform, at that point all you need is to validate that the train pulling in says that on the sign.

 

[MisterF]

If you are new to NYC and unfamiliar with its geography, I doubt the direction of uptown/downtown (or inbound/outbound) is something you'd be any more familiar with than north/south. All 3 are examples of something you'd need to be familiar with a map of the city to understand.

I sure wouldn't use New York as an example to follow. I find their system to be way more confusing than it needs to be for multiple reasons. London and Mexico City for example are a lot easier.

Line 1 is a freak case. I'm not really sure what the answer is, honestly... having two platforms at Union both labelled as northbound is hardly a solution, but if I'm a visitor to the city I do not think very much that merely seeing Finch and Vaughan would help me either. It also doesn't help that the University side runs under a million different streets, so it's not as clear cut as showing the eastern half of the line to be along Yonge. It's a weird one.

Showing Finch and Vaughan is useful to visitors when they're looking at a map. Figuring out which terminal station you're going towards removes all ambiguity about which direction to go. It's the most common way to navigate a metro system from my experience..

Also common is a line following multiple streets. It's unusual for a subway to follow a single street for its whole length.

 

[bearcat]

Just saw several overlapping signs like this at St. George. Not sure which one is new and which one is old. Presumably one will will be removed.

 

[nfitz]

Just saw several overlapping signs like this at St. George. Not sure which one is new and which one is old. Presumably one will will be removed.View attachment 619330View attachment 619331View attachment 619332

On the tiles? Isn't that the experimental one with the St. George symbol from the (1990s?) covered over with a number shield? Is the entire platform like that, or does it still have a different standard at the other end.

I doubt that they'll touch it until they do the big capacity improvement project in the late 2020s or 2030s.

 

[bearcat]

On the tiles? Isn't that the experimental one with the St. George symbol from the (1990s?) covered over with a number shield? Is the entire platform like that, or does it still have a different standard at the other end.

I doubt that they'll touch it until they do the big capacity improvement project in the late 2020s or 2030s.

No, the illuminated ones on the ceiling. The wider blank one is obstructing the smaller one from being read.

 

[nfitz]

No, the illuminated ones on the ceiling. The wider blank one is obstructing the smaller one from being read.

Ah! I completely didn't see that. I'd assume so.