[cplchanb]

One thing to bear in mind when considering alternative technologies is operating temperatures. Toronto is cursed with hot and cold regimes over an annual cycle.

A very valid point. Here in Toronto, equipment has to function properly at -20C. So far, during those extremely low temps the battery derate is significant. I remember reading an article saying that Tesla batteries derate up to 40% at -20C.
Im sure they probably have improved since then but still, it would be quite a problem if buses are only getting half range in the middle of winter

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

One thing to bear in mind when considering alternative technologies is operating temperatures. Toronto is cursed with hot and cold regimes over an annual cycle.

exactly temperature can range anywhere from -30 c felling like - 40 c with a wind chill all the way up to +30 c feeling like +40 c with the humidity. Its a challenge for all transit vehicle manufacturers, plus the TTC also insist on stainless steel frames because they had problems with aluminum ones rusting because of the salt on the roads in the winter.

 

[dowlingm]

These look tasty: http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/...tested-by-the-stif-and-keolis-from-september/

 

[W. K. Lis]

CC (copy to) the Toronto Mayor and Councillors, MPP's, and MP's.

France Plans to End Sales of Gas and Diesel Cars by 2040

See link.

France is joining a growing movement to force the extinction of vehicles that run on fossil fuels, saying on Thursday that it would aim to end the sale of gasoline and diesel cars by 2040.

The target is less ambitious than ones set by countries like Norway and India. Still, coming from a major car-producing country, France’s declaration gave additional momentum to efforts to fight climate change and urban smog by promoting the use of electric cars.

The timing of the announcement was also significant, a day after the automaker Volvo said it would phase out the internal combustion engine, and during a visit to Europe by President Trump. The announcement by Nicolas Hulot, the French environment minister, was an expression of European leaders’ determination to pursue an environmental agenda despite Mr. Trump’s repudiation of the Paris agreement on climate change.

“It’s a very difficult objective,” Mr. Hulot said Thursday. “But the solutions are there.”

The plan to phase out gasoline and diesel cars is part of a broader effort by France to limit global warming, which Mr. Hulot outlined Thursday. The country will also stop issuing new oil and gas exploration permits this year, and stop using coal to produce electricity by 2022, he said.

Mr. Hulot’s statement was the latest sign that the century-long reign of the internal combustion engine may be slowly coming to an end.

On Wednesday, Volvo said that all of its new models beginning in 2019 would be either battery-powered cars or hybrids that combined electric motors with diesel or gasoline engines.

The company, based in Sweden, said it will not introduce any new designs powered solely by conventional internal combustion engines — a first for a major carmaker. Mr. Hulot referred to Volvo’s announcement during his remarks in Paris on Thursday.

There was no immediate reaction to the government’s statement from France’s two major carmakers, Renault and the PSA Group, which makes Peugeot and Citroën cars.

Renault began selling battery-powered cars in 2011, and was among the first major carmakers to do so.

Wonder if the suburban Councillors will file it in the trash, instead of filing it for reference purposes and actually acting upon it? France's actions will also include public transit, so the City and the TTC had better think of the long term, instead of the next election.

 

[dowlingm]

I was in High Park yesterday. Apart from the ridiculous amount of free parking, it occurred to me to be a good place to begin a ban on gasoline/diesel vehicles.

 

[muller877]

I was in High Park yesterday. Apart from the ridiculous amount of free parking, it occurred to me to be a good place to begin a ban on gasoline/diesel vehicles.

....to discourage those that are use to an auto-dependent lifestyle from getting out of their cars? Leaving them to the confines of box stores and fast food? So they can be more of a burden on health care?

High Park has slowly decreased the amount of roads and given them over to bikes/pedestrians over time. A good incremental next step is to stop any vehicular traffic from Grenadier Restaurant to Colborne Lodge. Not just gas cars but all cars.

 

[steveintoronto]

A good incremental next step is to stop any vehicular traffic from Grenadier Restaurant to Colborne Lodge. Not just gas cars but all cars.

During the cherry blossom time a month or so back, vehicle traffic was so intense they had a cop directing traffic at High Park Blvd and Parkside Dr, and eventually blocking off access, it got so ridiculous. I walk a Lab quite often to the off-leash area, and it got even more dangerous than normal being a pedestrian there. No-one observes the 10 kmph speed limit, or if someone does, cars behind start honking their horns. It's a *park* for Gawd's sakes! If someone has a handicap, then they should have a permit to allow them to be driven or drive through, but the rest of them? Make them walk or take that obnoxious trailer train around the park.

There are far too many roads in the park, but at least there's a movement to allow Nature to regain the upper-hand in many spots, like the shoreline of Grenadier Pond, which looks far more inviting as a result.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I thought vehicle access into High Park is restricted on weekends during the summer. Am I mistaken?

 

[steveintoronto]

I thought vehicle access into High Park is restricted on weekends during the summer. Am I mistaken?

Could be. This was on a week day. I haven't driven through High Park for decades, and have no wish to.

Please note: If you are driving, you are able to enter the park from the Bloor Street entrance seven days a week. The Parkside Drive entrance is closed on Sundays and on the Saturday of the August long weekend. The park is busy during the summer months so parking is limited; allow enough time to find parking and be at the venue by 5:45 p.m.

https://www.canadianstage.com/Online/default.asp?BOparam::WScontent::loadArticle::permalink=highpark

 

[Fred.S]

I've never seen them close off the park to cars, even when sidewalks were spilling out. It would be great if they did, and just run a shuttle bus looping through the park. Would be great for an electric bus, something the could hit the subway, the 501 stop, and the 506 stop.

 

[kEiThZ]

Wonder if the suburban Councillors will file it in the trash, instead of filing it for reference purposes and actually acting upon it? France's actions will also include public transit, so the City and the TTC had better think of the long term, instead of the next election.

I am in the US on a military education exchange. I elected to do part of my grad school work on alternative energy systems, which are catching on massively on the military side of late (for both tactical and fuel efficiency reasons). I am just blown away by the progress being made on batteries and electric drives. I honestly think the TTC doesn't have to worry. Just wait about 8-10 years and they can start replacing buses with electrics that only need to be charged overnight at the depot. The only planning required will be how to get that much power to the depot and how do you plan your fleet around ops times and charging times (which will be fairly minimal). France's target date is hardly ambitious given the current trends in this field.

https://about.bnef.com/blog/electric-vehicles-to-be-35-of-global-new-car-sales-by-2040/

35% of car sales will be EVs in 2040. But that's a global figure. You can bet most of those sales will be in the developed world. Especially given that we're less than a decade away from price parity between electric and gas vehicles:

https://about.bnef.com/blog/electric-cars-reach-price-parity-2025/

I expect buses will be ahead of the adoption curve. The cost advantages will be too great to pass up for transit agencies. Heck they might already be there:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-proterra-20170616-htmlstory.html

 

[W. K. Lis]

During the TTC September 5, 2017 meeting, there was a report (see link) on the purchase of 440 new diesel buses. There was a longer than usual Q & A.

See Steve Munro's remarks on it, at this link:

Is A TTC Bus Technology Gerrymander In The Works?

At its September 5, 2017, Board Meeting, the TTC considered a report recommending the purchase of 440 “clean diesel” buses from Nova Bus, a division of Volvo. This sort of thing would normally sail through because the Board has considered and approved future bus plans at previous meetings. In this particular case, one important aspect of the order is that 325 of the vehicles would be delivered before the deadline for federal PTIF (Public Transit Infrastructure Fund) grants that end on March 31, 2019. A further 115 buses would be procured with the “standard” arrangement for TTC capital financing, but no federal contribution.

This procurement went through a common pattern with an RFI (Request for Information) in October 2016 and an RFP (Request for Proposal) in April 2017. Two proposals were received, one from Nova and the other from Flyer Industries, and both met the technical requirements. The decision to award to Nova Bus was based on pricing (Nova’s bid was $300.5 million while Flyer’s was $345.0 million).

In an unusual move, the Board entertained a last-minute addition to the deputations list, two representatives of a builder of battery buses, BYD. This is a Chinese manufacturer with an office in Los Angeles and, more recently, representatives in Canada. BYD did not bid on this RFP because it specified clean diesel technology which they do not supply.

Their presentation and associated Q&A went on at some length, far moreso than public deputations are normally allowed, and it was quite clear that this was a sales pitch for their product. In any other Board meeting, this would have been stopped as an abuse of process, but this situation was under the charmed support of Deputy Mayor Minnan-Wong who is a member of the TTC Board...

See the link for Steve's complete remarks.

 

[kEiThZ]

During the TTC September 5, 2017 meeting, there was a report (see link) on the purchase of 440 new diesel buses. There was a longer than usual Q & A.

See Steve Munro's remarks on it, at this link:

Is A TTC Bus Technology Gerrymander In The Works?



See the link for Steve's complete remarks.

Just ridiculous.

To begin with they should have considered other tech choices from the start. But to do so now because of BYD lobbying is even more ridiculous. Where does this leave other great electric bus makers like Proterra or Canadian OEMs like Greenpower?

And there are serious considerations with electric buses. Are they planning for the charging infrastructure? What standards will they use for charging? No discussion of any of that.

I think Steve is a little too pessimistic on electric buses. But he's absolutely right on the proces with which this transpired.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Just ridiculous.

To begin with they should have considered other tech choices from the start. But to do so now because of BYD lobbying is even more ridiculous. Where does this leave other great electric bus makers like Proterra or Canadian OEMs like Greenpower?

And there are serious considerations with electric buses. Are they planning for the charging infrastructure? What standards will they use for charging? No discussion of any of that.

I think Steve is a little too pessimistic on electric buses. But he's absolutely right on the proces with which this transpired.

The TTC has apprently been looking into ut alredy theselves and are putting out an RFI to all of the eltric bus manufatures that are certifed for use in Cnada . They paln to have a report avalable for November. BYD lobing them at the meet rely had no efect t all and the chair put a stop to it after awhile and brought it back to the actual busness of the TTC.

 

[someMidTowner]

The TTC has apprently been looking into ut alredy theselves and are putting out an RFI to all of the eltric bus manufatures that are certifed for use in Cnada . They paln to have a report avalable for November. BYD lobing them at the meet rely had no efect t all and the chair put a stop to it after awhile and brought it back to the actual busness of the TTC.

I'm sorry, what?