[Dan416]

You don't know the history of street cars. I do.

here is an ordinary street like Eglinton with just a bus

here's the amazing change that would practically happen instantly if we would just put in LRT

but like others said, we should not build subways.... they just lead to the street looking like this

I'm not quite sure if you're serious or if you're posting this to make fun of those who believe this?

EDIT: I noticed the man with the gun in the subway picture. So you must be joking.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Buses can easily be rerouted. Rails are a more permanent thing, and denote a higher quality service. Thus, developers are more likely to build around them. This is what I always hear, at least, and it makes sense to me.

I suppose you can't really oppose the idea in a purely theoretical world, but it has no practical value in 21st century Toronto. This is a trivial issue unless LRT is proposed for Calvington or Middlefield...are they actually going to reroute the Finch bus off of Finch? Where would the Don Mills bus be rerouted to? But look at Mount Pleasant or Harbord...where'd their streetcars go? I often walk along College or Queen for 20-30 minutes in vain, trying to access some of this quality service. Plain old bus service built the huge highrise clusters at Bathurst & Steeles, at Warden & Finch, at Mississauga Centre...but streetcars built 2 storey buildings with street retail and hipsters, so they win in Jane Jacobs-inspired watercolour renderings.

 

[ShonTron]

You don't know the history of street cars. I do.

here is an ordinary street like Eglinton with just a bus...
here's the amazing change that would practically happen instantly if we would just put in LRT

but like others said, we should not build subways.... they just lead to the street looking like this

Wow. That's brilliant! I wish I saw this earlier, as it does such a good job of satirizing the LRT fanboy position!

 

[Dichotomy]

I suppose you can't really oppose the idea in a purely theoretical world, but it has no practical value in 21st century Toronto. This is a trivial issue unless LRT is proposed for Calvington or Middlefield...are they actually going to reroute the Finch bus off of Finch? Where would the Don Mills bus be rerouted to? But look at Mount Pleasant or Harbord...where'd their streetcars go? I often walk along College or Queen for 20-30 minutes in vain, trying to access some of this quality service. Plain old bus service built the huge highrise clusters at Bathurst & Steeles, at Warden & Finch, at Mississauga Centre...but streetcars built 2 storey buildings with street retail and hipsters, so they win in Jane Jacobs-inspired watercolour renderings.

I lived at Bathurst/Steeles for 4 years in the mid-70s. It was the auto that built those clusters, not the bus. When those buildings were new, thirty five years ago, they had underground swimming pools, water fountains in the front, circular driveways, easy access to shopping, schools within 10 minute walks, but rent controls and urban changes have blighted the area.
Jane Jacobs can have her 3rd floor walk up on Queen St, with the bone rattling steetcars every 5 minutes, the Bathurst/Steeles of the '70s was a better vision, frankly. Of course, Steeles is still 4 lanes wide 30 years later, the subway still ends at Finch - so the density merely increased without any kind of planning whatsoever.
But that can be said for most of this city.

 

[ganjavih]

Jane Jacobs can have her 3rd floor walk up on Queen St, with the bone rattling steetcars every 5 minutes, the Bathurst/Steeles of the '70s was a better vision, frankly.

Hmmm...

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

One would to prove this cause and effect if one were to claim streetcars would be similar catalysts today, that streetcars have ingerent advantages over all other transit, which is a central point of an argument supported by some in this and other threads; that low-rise, Main Street, mixed-use Parisian boulevards automatically pop up along streetcar routes like mushrooms after a storm, and that every place could look like the old city of Toronto if only they replaced their buses and subways and everything else with streetcars.

You're basically confusing my argument with the argument of the Transit City crowd. I doubt very much throwing LRT everywhere will do anymore than cost a lot of money for marginal ridership increases. All I'm saying is you cannot negate the historical importance of streetcar networks had on the development of this city.

You can prove that streetcars were catalysts for development because the areas of the city that developed received service in their infancy. The almost complete absence of areas developed between 1900-1940 that did not have streetcar service is proof positive. Further, those areas that did develop without service where geared towards those that wouldn't have used it anyways; Forest Hill for example. Perhaps people would have used a bus if it had been offered but it wasn't. People saw streetcar service as desireable,m and therefore any speculative builder would have done well to locate his development near a line.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You're basically confusing my argument with the argument of the Transit City crowd. I doubt very much throwing LRT everywhere will do anymore than cost a lot of money for marginal ridership increases. All I'm saying is you cannot negate the historical importance of streetcar networks had on the development of this city.

You can prove that streetcars were catalysts for development because the areas of the city that developed received service in their infancy. The almost complete absence of areas developed between 1900-1940 that did not have streetcar service is proof positive. Further, those areas that did develop without service where geared towards those that wouldn't have used it anyways; Forest Hill for example. Perhaps people would have used a bus if it had been offered but it wasn't. People saw streetcar service as desireable,m and therefore any speculative builder would have done well to locate his development near a line.

No, I'm not confusing it...you and others are making that argument on behalf of Transit City and light rail supporters. The historical importance and legacy of streetcars (and did the areas with streetcars only get streetcars because they were growing? They didn't just randomly run streetcar lines out into the hinterland) is being used to justify keeping and extending streetcar lines today.

I'm not saying that streetcar lines had no effect on development, I'm saying that those transit lines did not trigger anything special because they were streetcars. Streetcars helped build North Toronto, but is the area any worse off today because it no longer has streetcar service? There simply is no unique relationship between streetcars and development that has a shred of practical value in contemporary Toronto. Keeping and expanding streetcar lines because of their historical importance to development is a lousy way to plan transit infrastructure. There isn't a plot of land in the entire city that developers couldn't sell stacked townhouses or low-rise condos with street retail on if only the city would permit it. The inner burbs are littered with infill and redevelopment projects, "catalyzed" by nothing more than plain old bus service. These areas often also have huge tower clusters and modest office buildings and other developments...there's nothing that LRT can do for a street like Sheppard East or Bathurst or any number of others that existing bus service, access to nearby GO/subway service, demographics, [re]zoning, and a hundred other factors are already doing. Build LRT when regular bus service becomes crippled or dysfunctional due to crowds/traffic and when heavy/commuter rail is overkill - don't build LRT because of a nostalgic belief that successful communities can only be built astride a streetcar line.

 

[waterloowarrior]

Wow. That's brilliant! I wish I saw this earlier, as it does such a good job of satirizing the LRT fanboy position!

thanks ShonTron... I like LRTs and they certainly have a role to play in Toronto, but I don't think their the panacea for Toronto and the only way to getting exciting streetlife and midrise, streetfronting development.... Why aren't there huge, pedestrian unfriendly towers sprouting everywhere over the past 50 years in Paris, Budapest, London, Amsterdam, Rome, Berlin, etc with all their subway stations? I think it's all about the urban planning for the area, not what mode is or isn't there. If we put a subway on Queen Street, it won't suddenly turn into Bremner or Sheppard if we plan ahead...

Suburban areas in Toronto developed as the streetcar went there... suburban London developed as the tube went there.... streetcars aren't the only way to produce coherent, functioning urban environments (agreeing with what scarberiankhatru just said)

 

[MisterF]

^I don't think anyone here's making the argument that they are.

 

[Whoaccio]

^I don't think anyone here's making the argument that they are.

I don't know about that. I don't mean to stereotype, but a large segment of the pro-LRT debate completely ignores typical transport planning metrics (ridership, cost per rider, environmental suitability) in favor of nostalgia. I believe the TTC prepared a report on the topic titled "The Streetcar Renaissance". The romantic imagery of Jane Jacobian urbanism just dripped off of it. The name it's self, "renaissance", literally suggests a rebirth. In that context of the rebirth of streetcars, which is unfair given that Toronto's legacy SC network has about as many parallels with a contemporary LRT system as a monorail, but also of urban regeneration.

It isn't the main argument presented in favor of LRT, but it inevitably occurs part way through a conversation on modes, once most empirical justifications have been expended, that SC will lead to a specific model of development. I recall attending a Spacing event a while back; someone actually had the gall to justify streetcars on the grounds that you could open the windows and take in the "urban fabric"!

 

[Dan416]

Indeed. It's really quite absurd to think that streetcars, moreso than buses or subways, would encourage a certain built form. Zoning dictates built form. Or at least it sets the bar. The city zoned Sheppard for high density since it had the subway there, so that is what was built. It's not rocket science.

 

[nfitz]

Jane Jacobs can have her 3rd floor walk up on Queen St, with the bone rattling steetcars every 5 minutes, the Bathurst/Steeles of the '70s was a better vision, frankly.

I live about 20 metres from a streetcar line - and until a year ago actually lived right next to one. Bone rattling streetcars are a thing of the past. Since virtually the entire track network has been reconstructed in last 20 years or so this just doesn't happen anymore (and believe me I know of what you refer, the difference on Gerrard Street when they reconstructed it in 2006 was like night and day). These days the buses make far more noise going up the street than the streetcars. Try standing on Coxwell where both streetcars and buses pass frequently heading up the slight hill. You have to pause your conversation when the bus passes, not the streetcar. Neither create any noticeable vibrations.

As for Bathurst and Steeles. It's a nightmare. I have to drive to the corner of Steeles and Keele once every few months for a meeting. It is hell. It can take as long for me to drive from my office at 401/404 to the Keele 407 ramp as it does to get 500 metres from the ramp, through 2 traffic lights into a parking lot. I've also tried driving just along Steeles, which takes forever, and on the 401 and north on Allen, Bathurst, Keele, etc. All are a nightmare even at times like 3 pm. It's some of the worse traffic I ever see in 416 (keeping in mind that I use transit if I'm downtown - though honestly I've dropped people with a lot of luggate at Union Station to catch a train at 8:30 AM and traffic there was actually better than what I see at Steeles and Keele).

Personally I can't wait for that subway - and even the new bus lane might make transit a better option for driving, as long as I don't have to lug too many boxes to the meeting.

I think it's time to live in the almost 2010s (less than 18 more month) rather than the 1970s.

 

[catcher_of_cats]

TTC aims to get light-rail project back on track

'We will likely be able to have a contract later this year'

Allison Hanes, National Post Published: Wednesday, August 06, 2008
Related Topics


TTC chairman Adam Giambrone doesn't expect the awarding of a streetcar contract to be delayed more than "a couple of months."Peter J. Thompson, National PostTTC chairman Adam Giambrone doesn't expect the awarding of a streetcar contract to be delayed more than "a couple of months."

The TTC has begun new negotiations with three streetcar manufacturers and expects to get its derailed $1.2-billion light-rail project quickly back on track, the transit commission's chairman said yesterday.

The open proposals process collapsed last month over problems with front-runner Bombardier's bid, but Councillor Adam Giambrone (Davenport), who chairs the TTC, doesn't expect the awarding of a contract to be delayed more than "a couple of months."

Mr. Giambrone said discussions are already taking place between the TTC and three light-rail manufacturers: Montreal-based Bombardier, which had its bid rejected over fears its trains would derail during tight-radius turns on Toronto's narrow old tracks; as well as German company Siemens and French multinational Alstom, neither of which submitted proposals for the $1.2-billion project.

"We will be presenting our way forward at the Aug. 27 commission meeting, at which point we will make a recommendation to have negotiations over the next couple of months with one of the three, two of the three, all of the three," Mr. Giambrone said. "And then we will likely be able to have a contract later this year."

That's not much different from the timeline originally prescribed by the scrapped proposals process, he added.

But some have expressed concern that the stalling of the submissions will delay the delivery of the 204 low-rise streetcars that are supposed to be rolled out by 2012.

Councillor Karen Stintz (Eglinton Lawrence) has written letters insisting a light needs to be shone on what went wrong with Bombardier's bid that caused the process to fall apart. She said there needs to be an understanding of what went wrong with the proposals process before it can proceed.

But Councillor Michael Thompson (Scarborough Centre), a member of the TTC board, said he thinks such criticism is a "red herring."

"It seems to me that the process is working and has worked really well," Mr. Thompson said, adding that it is better to find out in the early stages if there are risks to public safety because of derailment.

Likewise, it is better to take a bit longer and get the design specifications right, which is why he said he is not overly concerned that the awarding of the contract will be unduly delayed.

"As long as we get it right within a suitable timeframe," he said. "I think that we ought to afford the staff the time to do it right as opposed to hurry it along.

"It's unfortunate that we now have to go back to some degree, though not all the way back to the drawing board."

The TTC needs to purchase two versions of the same model streetcar: one standard model that will be used on new light-rail lines and another modified version that can navigate the existing track system.

Mr. Giambrone said getting the new "off-the-shelf" model is the priority because it needs to be ready to roll when the new light-rail line along Sheppard Avenue is completed.

"To be honest if there was a two-month delay, a four-month delay -- nobody wants a four-month delay -- but it's not the end of the world," he said. "These ones will continue to operate, we'll continue to maintain them. It becomes harder with each year passing by. But if it takes an additional six or seven months -- and I don't know if it will even take that long -- but if it were to, it wouldn't be the end of the world. What would be the end of the world would be if we didn't have new cars for when the Transit City lines start opening in 2012."

A Toronto Police enforcement campaign to focus attention on road safety involving TTC vehicles has resulted in thousands of tickets against motorists. Some numbers:

34 Toronto traffic deaths this year.

50 Percentage of those 34 deaths who were pedestrians.

2,790 Number of offence notices issued in 2007.

3,975 Number of offence notices issued since 2008 campaign began on July 21.

1,452 Number of tickets issued in 2008 campaign for driving in high-occupancy lanes.

1,326 Tickets for motorists making prohibited turns interfering with transit vehicles.

54 Tickets for passing streetcars while the doors were open.

185 Tickets for failing to clear intersection.

1,321 Tickets for 'no stopping,' 'no standing' and 'no parking' or 'standing in designated TTC routes.'

Source: Toronto Police

 

[CGM]

Alstom

 

[khris]

Woah that's a crazy design by Alstom. Very cool!