[crs1026]

And it only gets worse. By 2026, they predict that we'll need 16 more streetcars for ridership growth, and 9 more for new services (e.g. East Bayfront), requiring 263 total streetcars.

By 2031 they say we'll need 283 streetcars- 19 more than the extra 60. (of which only 15 are for new services - (17 with maintenance spares).

Well, Bombardier can likely meet that pace.

Considering that the damage settlement for screwing up this order might be some additional units, it would make sense to get out of the non-TTC side of the contract, and put it out to tender.

- Paul

 

[junior43]

I am very happy to wait and get pretty trains rather than the alternative (Siemens & Alstom crap - blech!).

Your just imposing your beliefs on the manufacturer. It's the new millennium version of liking Ford over GM, or vice versa. There really is nothing different between any of them (reliability is relatively the same for all of them). BBD;b just makes 'nicer' looking vehicles. Who cares? It's transit. Give me something delivered on time (and on budget) that works. BBD.b has failed on delivery. What else will they fail on?

ETA - sure the BBD'b vehicles may look more modern and shiny (I actually prefer their design overall) But I want value, and I'm not seeing that from BBD.b with his delay.

 

[Duck]

I care, because I'm a train enthusiast. I couldn't care less about routing or the function it serves or whatever. I only ride trains because, guess what, I like trains - so it matters to me. It may not matter to you what colour or design something is, but to me, that's what makes me interested in it.

I've ridden lots of Alstom and Siemens LRV's and they're just so bland. Very old looking and sterile inside, I don't like them at all. Stadler makes a really nice tram, too, I was OK with the ones in Bergen.

To use your analogy about cars: This is like you just being a commuter and needing "a car" vs. being a driving enthusiast who actually cares about the vehicle and the experience that particular vehicle brings, not the destination. Please try to see it from my perspective before you criticize; I am trying to see it from yours (and can).

 

[Admiral Beez]

And your neighbour (Waterloo) is busy building a new garage for a new vehicle from the same manufacturer, and getting worried it would be finished but no new vehicle.

Actually, a repeat of this failure to deliver, this time at Waterloo, would be a useful implement to finally bust Ontario cities free of single-source tenders to Bombardier. City managers across the land would be able to shop for the right vehicles regardless of where they're made - it's not their jobs to ensure employment in Sahagún, Thunder Bay or Berlin.

 

[ottbike]

The TTC also has a relationship with BBD for the Toronto Rockets, so it's not like the TTC can just walk away from Bombardier all-together. It is unlikely that the TTC would choose another manufacturer for when it comes time to replace the cars on the Bloor-Danforth line.

 

[rbt]

The TTC also has a relationship with BBD for the Toronto Rockets, so it's not like the TTC can just walk away from Bombardier all-together. It is unlikely that the TTC would choose another manufacturer for when it comes time to replace the cars on the Bloor-Danforth line.

Unlikely and unwise. Toronto Rockets have been very good value for the cost. Ditto for GO and their passenger cars.

 

[dowlingm]

I am very happy to wait and get pretty trains rather than the alternative (Siemens & Alstom crap - blech!).

What's wrong with Citadis? I'll give you that the Siemens S-70 isn't the most striking platform but Alstom have worked with various cities to incorporate design elements to make theirs distinctive

 

[dowlingm]

I was wondering about this. I knew Ottawa was with a different supplier, and also Calgary is with Siemens. So CanCon rules should be able to be covered by at least one, if not two other bidders.

This comment made me wonder about the timing of the Alberta systems and whether UTDC had bid on those high-floor vehicle orders in the late 1970s. Turns out they did, as this document claims, (http://bc.transport-action.ca/newsletters/T2N1998-3.pdf) but their design wasn't final. Edmonton needed them delivered and working for the Commonwealth Games and thus went with the U2s from Germany, the successor cars of which are now made in California.

 

[the lemur]

That's a great idea, and a beautiful shop! That hall is pristine. I wonder if there have been any discussions about doing exactly what you suggest.

That would be great, but it would depend on how much of each factory's capacity is already spoken for, I guess.

 

[jcam]

Like the Alstom order for Ottawa? Canada/Ontario doesn't have a waiver system like under Buy America. I'm sure there is political pressure to have as much local content as possible but I don't think there is a law.

Here
"One of the commercial requirements of the contract includes a minimum of 25 per cent Canadian content. Before issuing the RFP, the TTC hired a consultant to review the market and determine the highest percentage of Canadian content the TTC could achieve, while ensuring more than one proponent would bid on the contract. Booz Allen Hamilton determined 25 per cent would be achievable. Both proponents demonstrated they could achieve this target."

Siemens was the only other bidder. Alstom probably couldn't make a business case for submitting, and it notes the decision was made on price. I'm guessing Siemens sunk the the cost of a plant into their bid, which left them too high.

 

[smallspy]

I guess the professional people in the US are also dumb as me for making the same comments. Some have gone as far as stating this order should been done under 2 different contracts and supplier.

Until a real tender is issue, its only guessing what a car cost will be that is not shew toward anyone. All that extra engineering for these cars is in dreamland considering Alston was welling to ship their off the shelf model with various changes that met most TTC requirement back in 2005, but the chair of TTC said no. They were 2 schedule to arrived in 2007 at that time.

Its amassing what 3-10 cars are costing compare to larger order that are cheaper than what we are paying. When one knows they are the sole source of a product, extra markup is added to the bottom line.

Yes there is an option to order another 60 to the point its is an order going to the same company that can't delivery the current order since TTC not willing to look elsewhere. In fact by the time this options is to be place, it will either be for the 60 with options to buy more or to order the additional cars at that time due to delivery.

As for the poles, its peanuts in cost saving, but is cost saving for TTC since they don't have to spend the man hours to remove them here. I prefer pans over poles and been around the poles all my life. Time is money and a waste if not being put to better use.

Proof. As in, provide it.

And you're right - until the tender is received, we don't know what the final cost will be. But we do know that an off-the-shelf product won't work, and that additional engineering is going to be required to make it work. This is non-negotiable. And guess what, that engineering won't be done for free, will it?

And what you forgot to mention was that when Alstom made that offer of a demo unit (which would have been a car from Strasbourg or Mulhouse, IIRC), the TTC said "until you do what it needs to run on our track, no way". And since Alstom wasn't willing to build a car that would run on the TTC's tracks, well, we know where that went, don't we?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The TTC also has a relationship with BBD for the Toronto Rockets, so it's not like the TTC can just walk away from Bombardier all-together. It is unlikely that the TTC would choose another manufacturer for when it comes time to replace the cars on the Bloor-Danforth line.

True, and I agree they shouldn't. However in the case of subways and trains, Bombardier has a demonstrated expertise in both the product and meeting commitments. Perhaps because they're nearly or entirely built in Canada as opposed to outsourcing to Mexico to save on labour, etc.

 

[W. K. Lis]

At minimum, Bombardier should get parts, not from Mexico, but from Europe. Until the supply chain problems get resolved.

 

[raptor]

At minimum, Bombardier should get parts, not from Mexico, but from Europe. Until the supply chain problems get resolved.

but, NAFTA?

 

[nfitz]

but, NAFTA?

Where in NAFTA does it say you can't bring in parts from Europe?