[pman]

The problem is TTC needs a special ramp that no one uses in Europe or the world. It was an automatic rejection from most supplier. I don't know how much of the BBD ramp design is copyrighted thus how much of the technical details can be transferred to a new supplier if the tender went out. The worst case is they have to start the ramp design from scratch.

I don't see why TTC should pull out now as significant money had went towards engineering work, the TTC tweak version and assembly line setup. TTC would also be on the hook for all subcontract cancellation fee for part suppliers. This is money they can't recover if they pulled out. It probably accounts for at least 30-40% of the contract. BBD could sue the TTC if they pull out and not pay for the design work. It all about who breaks the contract and whats written down for the conditions to pull out. As long as BBD can prove they are doing all they could, the courts might not benefit the TTC if they pull out.

However, the TTC do need more than 264 streetcars by 2030 as the network expands into the portlands. The TTC should tender for the next next generation cars and have both suppliers delivering simultaneously. By 2019, the TTC can sue BBD for all the damage from the undelivered streetcars as they will probably delivery only 60-80 cars by then at this rate. I really think pulling out right now is stupid and the law is written up to help the one who sticks with the contract. Right now BBD is on the losing side.

How did Toronto manage to require a ramp that apparently no other city in the world uses, resulting in the elimination of most potential suppliers? And how much is the additional cost of sourcing customized streetcars from BBD instead of running a competitive tender for an off the shelf product?

 

[Voltz]

The problem is TTC needs a special ramp that no one uses in Europe or the world. It was an automatic rejection from most supplier. I don't know how much of the BBD ramp design is copyrighted thus how much of the technical details can be transferred to a new supplier if the tender went out. The worst case is they have to start the ramp design from scratch.

I can't imagine there was anything special about a ramp that was responsible for builders declining to bid on such a large order.

 

[Steve X]

I can't imagine there was anything special about a ramp that was responsible for builders declining to bid on such a large order.

The ramp isn't as simple as the ones on the bus. The gone through several designs and the ones on the current car isn't the final version either. Since the ramp needs to fully extend to the roadway, it needs to be very strong. That means it needs to be fully supported by the car frame. This required major modification to the available car out there.

You're right, it's probably not just the ramp. TTC wanted several unique things like trolley poll, 11m radius for turning, 1495mm gauge, steep grade climbing with 3 powered bogies to name a few. They also ordered a lot of additional parts which bought the contact which added like $200m to the contract. All these add up quickly. The TTC version is more expensive than the ML version yet the ML version have doors on both sides and ATO equipment. I don't know why some people think the TTC can just pull out easily. I'm saying TTC loses like 100 cars if they terminated the contact. They are also afraid that parts wouldn't be available like the C/ALRVs so they'll have to order another bulk of parts and have a healthy pool for servicing them for the next 30+ years. That would be very expensive to store and maintain. TTC would need to rent another site to store parts if they have two two types of cars. Then they'll have to train everyone again and redo all the testings. I don't think TTC is up to that task.

It's not buses. Even with buses, the TTC have been bulk ordering the same model. TTC just can't get an off the shelf model.

 

[Amare]

Everyone is forgetting about the elephant in the room; if the TTC was to cancel the current 200 car order and ultimately place an order with another supplier, what makes everyone so sure the next supplier would deliver the new vehicles on time?

Granted of course the new supplier would be 99% more likely not to repeat the same mistakes and put the TTC through the extensive amount of delays like Bombardier has.

 

[TOareaFan]

Everyone is forgetting about the elephant in the room; if the TTC was to cancel the current 200 car order and ultimately place an order with another supplier, what makes everyone so sure the next supplier would deliver the new vehicles on time?

because what the problems with this order prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is:

1. Bombardier is always this late on all deliveries on all orders...and we should have known that before placing the order
2. No other company is ever late delivering on their promises...and we should have known that before placing the order

I think that is why we can state with such collective confidence that we would have our streetcars by now if they had been ordered from someone else and that if we switched now, we would still get them faster by switiching.

I've got that right, right?

 

[EnviroTO]

Bombardier was the logical choice for the TTC. The TTC would not have been able to predict that a company which built all of the rolling stock of the TTC and GO, which has built a tonne of LRT/tram vehicles in Europe, and which builds mass transit and rail equipment at 60 plants around the world (BT is larger than Siemens Mobility) would not be able to deliver streetcars to Toronto in a timely fashion.

It is a common mistake in outsourcing to assume that a facility with people that have training that looks similar, whose job descriptions looks similar, can be thrown a work package that they will deliver with the same timelines and quality as would have happened at home. That is a fallicy until there is experience in the way a company works, the way a product is created, and people fully understand their roles to improve things and communicate deficiencies. In one plant there may be people who catch errors or fill in the blanks appropriately and feed that back to design because they have that experience. In another plant they will build to spec with no idea of what the big picture is and what might be an error. Blanks might be just left undone. Outsourcing fuselage parts to China also caused delay on the CSeries project and they brought it back in house to an experienced plant. Maybe with the Mexican plant being their own they have avoided pulling the work out of the plant longer than they should have.

In the end though, it is to our advantage to have Bombardier get their act together and be the vendor we trust. If 700 people loose their job in Thunder Bay, plus the economic impact to the supporting companies and people impacted, Ontario takes on the loss of tax revenue and increased social costs. It is in Ontario's interest to spend our tax dollars in Ontario so the money comes back as tax revenue to fund our next project and further invest in Ontario.

 

[Steve X]

because what the problems with this order prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is:

1. Bombardier is always this late on all deliveries on all orders...and we should have known that before placing the order
2. No other company is ever late delivering on their promises...and we should have known that before placing the order

I think that is why we can state with such collective confidence that we would have our streetcars by now if they had been ordered from someone else and that if we switched now, we would still get them faster by switiching.

I've got that right, right?

Let's start with Siemens:

http://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-bahn-angry-over-siemens-failure-to-deliver/a-16398171
http://www.spiegel.de/international...r-trains-part-of-larger-problem-a-868923.html

There's no gaurentuee that might work out either

 

[Duck]

1. No other company is ever late delivering on their promises...and we should have known that before placing the order

This is a joke, right?

 

[TOareaFan]

What I found out today.....even 3 is not enough to set off some peoples' sarcasm detectors.

 

[pstogios]

What I found out today.....even 3 is not enough to set off some peoples' sarcasm detectors.

Maybe some people are blinded by their love for Bombardier.

 

[Duck]

Maybe some people are just bad at writing or communicating thoughts effectively.

 

[44 North]

No doubt it'd cost more, but I still maintain my belief that two orders from separate manufacturers would've been the best bet. One naturally being Bombardier, the other could've been any number of excellent companies. We'd get the same amount of streetcars, similar contractural design specs, similar livery, maybe similar parts - but with the fleet order filled in half the time. Another benefit is that the public can experience two vehicles rolling along our streets, and say to themselves: 'nah, I'll wait for the _____ (Alstom? Siemens? Hyundai?) streetcar...I find it a bit nicer to ride than the Flexity".

The added cost of going with two suppliers would be partially negated by a quicker fleet delivery, and no longer having pour money into extending the life of the A/CLRVs. And besides, even with the order split in two each would still be one of the largest light rail orders on the planet.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Should they order the 60 additional streetcars, they can order them with just pantographs, no trolleys.

They just might have to retrofit the old rebuilt streetcars with pantographs in the meantime.

In the meantime, I hope Bombardier doesn't just roll over and die.

 

[Megaton327]

Should they order the 60 additional streetcars, they can order them with just pantographs, no trolleys.

I seem to recall that only the first 60 or so cars will have both the pantograph and the trolley pole, and that subsequent ones will be pan-only.

 

[nfitz]

I seem to recall that only the first 60 or so cars will have both the pantograph and the trolley pole, and that subsequent ones will be pan-only.

Yes.